Shark's Scope

[tikay]

I'm pretty sure that Sharkscope terms of use specifically say that the data should not be used in this way. On iPad, playing poker and waiting for Jeeves so can't check (cba really)

Correct.

I've never seen evidence that they enforce it though.

[david3103]

I'm pretty sure that Sharkscope terms of use specifically say that the data should not be used in this way. On iPad, playing poker and waiting for Jeeves so can't check (cba really)

Correct.

I've never seen evidence that they enforce it though.

Well they darned well should

[Rexas]

Tikay, if this was me in the same situation, for starters I wouldn't be able to help but take the mickey out of the billy big gob, or whatever his name is. Undoubtedly, he himself is not doing too well in the game, or if he is, it's most likely due to a heater rather than being particularly good. Indeed, he is ruining the game for others. This, I feel, is the issue here, and not the use of sharkscope. I have no problem with tracking software, and personally don't like this negative stigma that is being created around it. It's not a holy grail to winning loads of money by any means, to some it can be the opposite, but this is not a tracking software debate. If sharkscope didn't exist, these chat box warriors would find another way to abuse the person that's just won a pot from them. These people will both exist and be detrimental to the game, until they are made aware that their behavior is unacceptable by the professional community. I'm 100% for these people being called out, at least by screen name, for this sort of thing.

For what it's worth, I have no problem with sharkscope. I don't actually use it at all, and haven't opted in to it, but I have no problem with other people using it on me or others at the table. If I see this sort of thing going on, then I will absolutely get involved and defend the guy being abused. After all, he's done nothing wrong but enjoy playing the game, and who the hell are we to detract from that.

Moderators can be made aware of the guy's behavior, but I really don't think they will be that bothered to do anything about it. For the most part, it seems, sites haven't properly twigged that every time a player is upset by a situation by this, they lose their custom, their rake, and gradually their player base will diminish to a point where they will make considerably less money than before. Perhaps instead they should be called out by screen name. If he's looking at sharkscope, he probably at least views the forums, and by embarrassing him in this way I would hope he would see how bad his behavior is.

[The Squid]

Is it necessarily bad for recreational customer? I agree you should be able to opt-out/in but pros and recs alike need to be able to track how theyre doing.

A losing player deserves to be able to see how much money he's done playing online.

[h]

I'm pretty sure that Sharkscope terms of use specifically say that the data should not be used in this way. On iPad, playing poker and waiting for Jeeves so can't check (cba really)

Correct.

I've never seen evidence that they enforce it though.

Well they darned well should

how ? you tell  shark scope "sky poker player alias big gob has been abusing other players in the chat box "
response  might be "alrighty if he every logs onto shark scope as big gob we will ban him "
dont see how it could every happen

[arbboy]

Is it necessarily bad for recreational customer? I agree you should be able to opt-out/in but pros and recs alike need to be able to track how theyre doing.

A losing player deserves to be able to see how much money he's done playing online.

It's bad for the rec customer and the site itself.  The big losing rec loses quicker as he can be bum hunted more easily and quickly by the site 'pros' who dont have to play him numerous games first to know he is a fish.  Secondly for the poker site itself its bad for them as they get far less churn from the 'rec's' deposit with him losing even quicker than he would without sharkscope.  I have been amazed for years why sites have allowed sharkscope to use their data like they have even though in the early days sharkscope assisted me massively in finding truely awful high stakes stt players from greece/cyprus/spain who had roi's of -30/40% at £200-£500 stts.

[arbboy]

I'm pretty sure that Sharkscope terms of use specifically say that the data should not be used in this way. On iPad, playing poker and waiting for Jeeves so can't check (cba really)

Correct.

I've never seen evidence that they enforce it though.

I'll send off an email telling them to datamine the chat too. If only someone already had access to players emails and the chatlogs already.... How is sharkscope getting the blame for the incident you witnessed? Whether the site should exist or not seems like a completely different argument.

Arbboy, people know if someone is terrible they don't need to search on sharkscope. It might stop someone from bumhunting the first game but after that its going to be game on. I understand your point but nowadays if an unknown sits in a hs stt they are getting joined anyway.

Agreed but over the years it has made the process much quicker and killed the online game so much quicker than most online pros would have imagined back in say 2008. (obviously not just sharkscope but training sites/data mining/collection) That's fact.  This has made rec's lose quicker and the sites make less rake for their marketing spend per pound deposited by losing players.  This is turn has made gaming companies less inclined to spend their marketing budgets recruiting poker players and more likely to try to attract casino/sports bettors who they get to keep their losses rather than the sites pro players.

Semi pros stop playing because the game is tougher.  This causes volume on sites to drop massively less games run which causes recs to play less as there are less games to sit in.  (It's all a knock on effect from sharkscope and associated products).  Training sites teaching rec's how to be pros has also been a massive factor.  The recession hasn't helped for obvious reasons as rec's have less disposable income and the credit cards have dried up from 5/10 years ago but i think its shoved a lot of smart kids into poker via the training sites who wouldn't have gone into poker from uni if it wasn't for the recession (record levels of youth unemployment) as they would have been more likely to enter the job market.

I think so many things have killed online poker sharkscope is obviously just one of them but the bottom line is online poker is dead and imo will never get anywhere close to the levels it did in 2004-9 ever again.  The game has killed itself and only has itself to blame for all the short term views the vast majority of players/sites took back in the early days.

[david3103]

I'm pretty sure that Sharkscope terms of use specifically say that the data should not be used in this way. On iPad, playing poker and waiting for Jeeves so can't check (cba really)

Correct.

I've never seen evidence that they enforce it though.

Well they darned well should

how ? you tell  shark scope "sky poker player alias big gob has been abusing other players in the chat box "
response  might be "alrighty if he every logs onto shark scope as big gob we will ban him "
dont see how it could every happen

[theprawnidentity]

[Rexas]

I don't believe online poker is dead. It's not what it was, sure, but we have to remember that America is no longer involved (at least not to anywhere near the same degree), as was the case in 2004. I also don't think this software has the effect that many seem to think it does. Sharkscope tells you what, that the guy doesn't win over whatever sample it is? Recs don't put in a great deal of volume, so the sample will be relatively small. Guy could be a winning player, but sharkscope disagrees because over the 20k hands he's put in he's not winning. This site also doesn't tell you anything about their game, just gives you some results. The equipment, basically, is only as good as the person using it. Sharkscope, and all the other software being mentioned, does not make you win, but it is a tool that can help you to do so. It takes time, and effort, to learn to use. The fact is that nowhere near as many people actually win as would have you believe, and it is often these people that become the chatbox warriors, and the serial bumhunters. The problem is the attitudes. If everyone keeps saying poker is dead, then it will become so. For sure, there are things that can be done to mitigate the problems, but I do think the very small percentage of winners are realising that their games are drying up, and these intelligent, dedicated people are going to realise why sooner or later.

As I said in an earlier post, the people that are dishing out the abuse are the problem here, not the sites themselves. If they weren't there, these people would find some other way to belittle their opponents.

[verndog158]

online poker is only 'dead' in that respect as america isnt involved. thats so clearly obvious. when it comes back online again, online poker will be hugeee! and imo it isnt even dead now

[tikay]

online poker is only 'dead' in that respect as america isnt involved. thats so clearly obvious. when it comes back online again, online poker will be hugeee! and imo it isnt even dead now

It's far from dead, in fact volume is growing on some sites, but it does have problems which need dealing with if it is to resume overall growth. For starters, everyone needs to recognize how important the recreational players are. Collectively, they contribute most of the liquidity. And most of them have never been near a poker forum or any of the tracking sites. They just want a few hours fun in the evening while the family watch TV or whatever.

[DMorgan]

I'm really not so sure that the tracking sites have a net negative effect

The main argument in favour is that the vast majority of information that comes out of these sites is who is winning, not who is losing. Every time a news article says x player won/lost y amount it comes from a tracking site. The leaderboards on these sites show players what can be achieved through hard work and dedication. From personal experience, the reason that I started playing heads up SNGs rather than 9mans where I started is because the profit leaderboards were jam packed with HUSNG players.

Players especially at small and micro stakes absolutely love tracking the high stakes action. The thread on 2p2 petitioning Pokerstars to bring back High Stakes Poker has huge support. When full tilt went down after black friday we heard a lot of noise from the pros that had their money in limbo, but the main concern for small stakes and recreational players was 'where are we going to rail high stakes action now?'

So while the information that tracking sites give us can be used in a negative way to berate losing players about their losses, I think the effect of people seeing what could be possible for them  and how their favourite players that they've seen on TV or read about on Pokernews is a great way to generate deposits and to get people trying the game.

[verndog158]

online poker is only 'dead' in that respect as america isnt involved. thats so clearly obvious. when it comes back online again, online poker will be hugeee! and imo it isnt even dead now

It's far from dead, in fact volume is growing on some sites, but it does have problems which need dealing with if it is to resume overall growth. For starters, everyone needs to recognize how important the recreational players are. Collectively, they contribute most of the liquidity. And most of them have never been near a poker forum or any of the tracking sites. They just want a few hours fun in the evening while the family watch TV or whatever.

i agree, i dont think its dead at all, i was disagreeing with arrboy, maybe in comparison to 8-9 years ago, but thats pretty much down to our friends over the pond being barred from it.

[theprawnidentity]

It's far from dead, in fact volume is growing on some sites, but it does have problems which need dealing with if it is to resume overall growth. For starters, everyone needs to recognize how important the recreational players are. Collectively, they contribute most of the liquidity. And most of them have never been near a poker forum or any of the tracking sites. They just want a few hours fun in the evening while the family watch TV or whatever.

Indeed, and sharkscope isn't in the chatbox giving them grief.  It's the fucktard who's got not nothing better to do with his life than to abuse people online.  I wonder if banning the individual in question, then emailing the player who got abused explaining that sky poker were sorry about what happened at that steps had been taken to remove the person responsible from the game would have done more good than starting a thread saying that online poker was dead and that regs are bum hunting people through a website they never heard of?