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Surely, this can't continue. How can a litre of petrol be £1.12p

Tax and greed from the oil companies.

I'm going to be selling my car soon to buy something more economical, although what I've got my eye on might not achieve that purpose.

As to what we can do - nothing.  There are no feasible alternatives to owning and driving a car for many/most people.  Public transport is simply not an option for many.

I suppose there are protests, but I'm not sure what they achieve. 

I so neeeed my vehicle.

Market forces will determine the price level

NO, surely not!

Petrol prices are ridiculous in this country..when I moves to Scotland in 99 you didn't even pay 90P for a litre of petrol. 112P is ridiculous.

They will, but unfortunately the oil companies are operating a cartel, and the government benefits from this at the same time.  This means the prices are artificially high.

one of them statements pretty much disproves the other

Tax aside the global price of a barrel is now $125 (brent) Its doubled over the period of this graph.

Retail margins are v v thin, but the squeeze on consumers is now so intense (rising costs, falling growth) that this stagflation I beleive will lead to social unrest.

Not really

yes, nothing...

Why is petrol and diesel so much cheaper in Luxembourg?

why Luxembourg?

Cheapest in Europe apparently, and it obviously doesn't produce any of its own.

Yes, petrol sells for more than it ever has, yet independent petrol stations can't afford to stay open and are closing at an ever increasing rate.

Quite funny that really..because who sets the price of a barrel of Oil? Is it not all speculation? And what is the actual cost of a barrel of oil? Doesn't that make margins huge, if not for the retailer than for the ones who own the fields and refine the stuff?

All in all, with the prices of food rising dramatically (atleast the important foods if not your local happy meal) and the price of oil escalating, on top of which there is a fall in the property prices and it's harder to lend money surely we must be heading for some sort of recession?

I learn so much from watching the news. today they told me that the solution to the problem of rising fuel price is to remove your roof rack, take things out of the boot and turn your engine off in queues of traffic. well that's that sorted then.

Dont supermarkets make a loss are break just even on petrol to entice you to go shopping there?

good thing most of the roads are always clogged up..you can safe a shit load of dosh.

boldie, yes we are

Set by speculation....well yes and the markets are led by investors such as the hedge funds that weren';t around ten years ago. With so many asset prices under pressure then commodities are a good bet at the moment, and oil is included in this

for the producer the margins are obviously fantastic but the majors are integrated, they have to refine and market where costs are rising

long term they also have to invest forutnes in new energy sources, environmental safety and the like

I learn so much from watching the news. today they told me that the solution to the problem of rising fuel price is to remove your roof rack, take things out of the boot and turn your engine off in queues of traffic. well that's that sorted then.

LOL

Not setting them on fire is also advisable.

nah, luxemburg at least 50% higher than ukraine (approx 50p/l) and I think greece, slovenia, estonia, lithuania, spain and switzerland are all cheaper than lux too

wrong

you burn more feul starting the engine than you would do sitting idle for 4 minutes

Isn't the cost of oil per barrel partly influenced by the amount they pump out per day?  So if they have a slack day like usual, they price it high, but if they flood the markets then the price will drop? 

It's all a scam, the cartels have it covered, the government gets their grubby fingers on what they can, like with all things that the people need (as per ciggies) and it's us that ultimately pays for it.

£1.12 per litre is outrageous, even if it is a lot cheaper than beer

yes but OPEC, the producing cartel is in disarray. Half of them are Islamist fundamentalist, some are in problem areas and the "unity" required to restrict production for the benefit of the Western world in not present.

Because they are not taxed to the extremes that we are, i hate to say it but we should do what the Frenchies are doing and force this poxy government into giving us a break.
Surely we won't take much more of this?

avg margin on retail petrol sales is around the 1p/l mark. when I was running garages selling 7,000 l/daythe fuel sales didn't provide enough profit to cover wages for a single cashier on min wage. the only reason to run a petrol forecourt nowadays is to attract footfall through your shop.

Quoted from a group on Facebook

Take the time to at least read this, then, see what you think and pass it on if you agree with it.
We are hitting 106.9 p a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying £1.10 a litre.
This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the 'don't buy petrol on a certain
day campaign that was going around last April or May! The oil
companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't
continue to hurt ourselves by refusing to buy petrol. It was more
of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them.
BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can
really work.
Please read it and join in!
Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned
us to think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP, we need to take
aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the market
place not sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each
day, we consumers need to take
action. The only way we are going to see the price of petrol come
down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not purchasing their
Petrol! We can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. Here's the idea:
For the rest of this year DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two
biggest oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP.
If they are not selling any petrol, they will be inclined to
reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other
companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact we need
to reach literally millions of Esso and BP petrol buyers. It's
really simple to do!!
Now, don't wimp out on me at this point... keep reading and I'll
explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it
to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to
at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, until we reach around THREE MILLION consumers!
Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's
all.(and not buy at ESSO/BP)

Invite ten more people to this group within one day of joining, all 3 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next
8days!!! Acting together we can make a difference If this makes
sense to you, please pass this message on.
PLEASE HOLD OUT UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE 69p a LITRE
RANGE
It's easy to make this happen. Just invite your friends, and buy
your petrol at Asda,Tesco, Morrisons Jet etc.
i.e. boycott BP, Shell and Esso (and Sainsburys)
would this work

GREAT...just don't ever switch your car off and you safe tonnes of fuel :)

devils advocate

if they were to reduce indirect taxation (petrol for example) it has to be clawed back from somewhere given the country is in debt

so higher Income tax? higher NI? fewer improvements to hospitals? schools? train less nurses? etc etc

not spending 67 billion on updating Trident?

Is the right answer.

Or that. Of course the government has finite resources from which to fund its obligations. I don't think either major party, given the global economic background and the likelihood of lower revenues on a 24 month view, will be rushing to reduce indirect taxes.

And who exactly supplies Asda, Morrisions, & Tesco with Fuel? Correct. BP, Esso, Shell. As protests go, it's as blunt as a blunt thing.

I think we should worry less about the price of petrol - it's just money, & a luxury - & more about some of the dreadful World-disasters of the last month.

During the aftermath of the Burma Cyclone, the Daily Express & Daily Mail Headlines were about the £10 Tax affair & Gordon Brown. As sick as sick gets.

Why does BP charge 120p a litre near me, when Sainsbury's (using BP fuels) only charge 110p a litre?

(I say only, but it's relative)

Its a huge disincentive to enterprise though.

Now where's that Swiss Chataeu brochure I was sent in 2003?

if they cut back on that i am off to france

Sainsbury's are loss leading. They accept a loss on petrol in the hope of getting more footfall through the shops

Less overseas aid, concessions to the EU (we pay billions more than the French for example), stricter benefit systems/NH qualification criteria, reduce mp's pay, pull our troops out of Afganistan  etc. etc.
Just because Brown and his cronies tell you we need the taxation for home services doesn't make it true.

Promise?

sure, but again there is a finite resource and a list of obligations. I repeat neither major party will easily cut indirect tax. Of course I am no fan of this government either.

Now that's what I call getting value for your money

Seriously? Spending 67 billion on Trident and 4 Billion on aircraft carriers is stupid when you're asking the military to cut 15% from their budgets...I have no problem with spending on the military but this can't be smart.

I don't agree actually. Not wishing to downplay at all the terrible natural disasters recently, but how is Petrol a luxury for the vast majority of Britons? Much of public transport is either too expensive or too unreliable for petrol for one's personal use to be anything other than a necessity.

I think they should be higher.

To keep poor people off the roads.

loss leader. while not knowing how busy the place is it's highly unlikely that they sell more than about 12,000l/day. at 9p/l loss (the 10p price difference-the 1p profit the BP is making) they've only got to make just over £1,000/day extra from the customers that the petrol attracts into the supermarket.

also they will be involved in bunkering which allowed them to advance purchase from suppliers at a fixed rate at some point in the past so in a rising market they're always buying at a lower price than any independants who have to buy at the surrent market rate

The French people pay roughly the same amount in tax as people in Brittain do. (Brittain has more indirect taxes) They have a good benefits system, they have an NHS that works, and their benefit system isn't completely messed up and people generally don't have a massive debt there.
Why can the French do what Brittain can't?

It's not about overseas aid...overseas aid is money well spent. (Those people tend to need it a hell of a lot more than we do.) Or consessions to the EU..(I am of the "either shit and join or get off the pot completely" opinion or get

It's about an inept govt that spends Billions on failed IT systems, public transport, faith schools, consultants and admins in the NHS, Trident and PFI initiatives etc. Cut all that shit out and you'd be amazed how much money would be left.


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=277 is the UK debt..not all that much and could fairly easily be dealt with.

cos France is bigger and connected to the rest of Europe?

Yes, I know why it's cheaper.  With supermarkets everywhere, why do we need the BP petrol stations selling petrol at 10p+ a litre more than the supermarkets?  It's not like your Shell or BP need the income from retail.

According to Wiki, the French pay a lot more, we're quite low in the scheme of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

I'm off to Ireland, it's no wonder lots of the multinational organisations that were based in the UK buggered off over there!

Can you take Ironside with you, just in case he doesn't move to France?

It's a luxury, like Tellys, mobile 'phones, Computers, & washing machines. We can live without them, but we prefer not to. IMO, of course. ;)

france is closer to the midlands
france would be safer as they would have a Nuclear deterant
oh and have you seen the women in france

yep its a promise

all the others you quote are luxuries, clearly. Petrol? different I would contend, for most of us. IMO only!

do you really think that that's why they have the systems pretty much sorted from a welfare point of view? I think it has more to do with the French attitude for not standing for bullshit or getting ripped off by their govt. They let the govt know by protesting that they don't like what the govt is doing..and if the govt doesn't listen they vote them out.
 Here people protest about a war, the govt ignores them and people then keep the govt in power. People seem to care more about John Prescott banging his secretary and having 2 Jags than about the billions of pounds spent on a failed IT system in the NHS that could have been spent on nurses and doctors.
Don't think the politicians here don't realise that the British tend to be a nation of moaners rather than people who take action against their govt, in fact they count on it. But now that the price of fuel and food is going up and everyone finds  out that .."actually honey, we're broke as we have a 300k debt and a 50k house" there might be a change in that attitude..

Not a chance, Ireland is my backup in case he doesn't :D

I'll carry your luggage.

yeah..that's correct and you're making the classic mistake Brown and Blair want you to make...you're only looking at income tax and direct taxes. The nr of stealth taxes Brown has introduced is ridiculous.

http://www.moneyweek.com/file/17989/the-one-good-reason-to-hope-gordon-brown-becomes-pm.html sums it up rather nicely.

We would die without petrol, then? Or would life be just a bit more awkward than it is now?

Think of the money you'd save, if there were no petrol to buy.

Take a while to get to places though

not if the places were really close

Of course we can live without petrol - but an alternative fuel source would have to be found/used.  We could live without electricity, and without the internet.  Well, actually, I don't think I could... :'(

i'm a taxi driver, its killing me but i don't know what to do. when people protest outside refinery's and i can't get any fuel, i'm goosed anyway. i need the fuel and to get it cheaper would be nice

Just paid €1.26 per litre at a local petrol station that's known for being a bit more expensive than the big supermarket chains in Killarney.  Thing is, unless I have reason to travel to town for shopping or whatever, .05 - .07 per litre saved, is shot out the window by making the trip. 

Ye may as well start packing and move over here.  Everyone else has.   rotflmfao 

Life would be a lot more awkward, immeasurably more so than if I was minus computer, TV, mobile etc

I actually travel far less than I used to (no more dtd for me at the moment) because I won't spend £65-70 to get there and back.

For the economy overall, we'd be put back a century without petrol/diesel to run industry with, with huge consequences for everyone's living standards..far more so than if none of us had TV's, mobiles etc

Is Slovenia in London?

!

Perish the thought that we would have to modify our lifestyle. Shocking, absolutely shocking.

"more awkward".......

Well we can't have awkward, now can we?

The thing is it's more expensive to use public transport and less convenient even with the current hike in petrol.

You want to go to the coast for the day, fuk you its 5hrs on bus or 3hrs on the train at double the cost and journey time.

The scarcity of oil is only one problem facing the human population going forward.  The biocapacity of the world is apparently 5 billion people, and we're currently at 6,666,666,666 (or thereabouts).  By 2050 it'll be over 9 billion.

Economic breakdown is going to be one factor, amongst many others, that will make the world a very different place in the next century.

I bet a load of people are modifying as we speak. However the idea that some form of agrarian non-industrial utopia would be acceptable in a first world economy under any government, which is the logical conclusion of living without petrol, is so off-beam.

No just the slovenians lol

?

I don't drive, never have, so, right off the bat, financially I'm ahead by however much a car costs, plus insurance, MOT, other garage stuff, parking, furry dice and christmas tree air fresheners. That's before we even get to the cost of fuel.

Out of interest, how much would it cost in petrol to drive from, say, London to Nottingham and back?

Indeed..Petrol is definitely not a luxury..and it drives me mad that people say stuff like that. In the same way that  people (mainly of a different generation) claim that the telly is a luxury. Yes, so was a gun for hunting when it first came out..you after all used to use a club and a spear when you went hunting and a house is a luxury as we are, technically, all able to sleep outside or in caves. It's a silly thing to say really and not very well thought out. We COULD also all grow our own vegetables in our own back garden on all natural soil and all that and life off the land (it's what we used to do a milion or so years ago)...but that doesn't mean meat and a supermarket is a luxury all of a sudden.

The "petrol is a luxury" comes from the vegan eco-nuts and I'm amazed they managed to actually convince anyone with half a brain with that bollox.

/end rant.

(no offense intended TK but this one really drives me nuts

Well yes. But "more awkward", "less convenient", don't really cut much ice with me. Less awkward, more convenient are both all very well & good. But life does not hinge on awkward & convenient. Well, not in the UK, anyway. In parts of the world they have no potable water. That's awkward. That's inconvenient. Water is not a luxury, we die without it.

Harold Macmillan got it spot on.

Trivia piece - Harold Macmillan is boltpp's uncle.

Ermmm, no we can't.  Not ALL of us. 

The price has gone crazy, every time I need to fill up (thats getting less and less as I use the car less) it seems to have gone up a few p per litre, Petrol is now about 10p litre cheaper than diesel (never noticed petrol being cheaper before), but the worst thing is the public transport is not there to help me leave the car at home. I may be an isolated case in that I cannot get to work by PT, but I suspect not.

Tikay: Life without fuel or petrol now would not be good for the country or world and I think a few people might dye actually.

no i cant move to ireland they dont have any nukes (yes i know they have the duke but it wasnt a typo)

Oooooooooh, what colour ?

Great uncle

Taximan's favourite colour? Thai dye.

Tikay, in all honesty we couldn't all survive if there was suddenly no petrol/diesel. We now have large conurbations of people dependant on transported supplies of food, no transport, no food.

The people in the cities couldn't just start walking out to the countryside either. Even there, depending on time of year how many people have more than a few days food available?

So some people die. We can NOT life without petrol/fuel unless we don't mind millions dying...if ever a FACT button was needed it would be for that...but that's OK apparently as petrol is a luxury...and therefore it would only be inconvenient.

tikay would open up the coal mines and ship everything by steam train .... we would also all be listening to the "wireless" and drinking tea out of china cups, DONT VOTE TIKAY FOR PM !! ;)

I was agreeing with you and reinforcing the point that it's not a luxury. 

tikay's world would be black and white too. Colour wouldn't have been invented yet.

Disagreeing with me does not cause offence, ever, assuming it's done in a reasonable manner. The offence, seenmingly, comes when I disagree with others, but let's not go there.

That apart, yes, now we are getting to where I'm driving this thread.

Someone wants us to to sign some daft petition to "force" the Oil companies to reduce their prices, &/or the Governbment to cut the taxation on fuel & other stuff. (Taxation represents how much of the forecourt price of fuel - 70%, 80%?). Like, they will listen, yes? Err, no.

And within hours, we have a 5 page thread, full of folks who care about the money in their pocket.

Remind me how long the thread on blonde about the Burma cyclone was, please. Or the Chinese Earthquake. Sure, they have nothing to do with poker. But nor do fuel prices.

OK, petrol, although we differ on degree, is not a luxury. But do you see where I'm going? I was hoping others would get there first, but money is very dear to most folks. Like petrol, really.

Is Colour TV a luxury, or a necessity?

yeah sorry mate..I was still in rant mode.

Is freedom a luxury or a necessity?

but tikay you are fighting human nature. Its not just Mail or Express readers, people are energised by that which is immediate to them

At the next election, will overseas aid for example be a big discussion point? will policies on global poverty be a big vote winner/loser?

I contend not.

People will vote, and discuss, on issues such as the domestic economy first and foremost.

This does not mean that people are uncaring about the likes of Burma, or Chinese earthquakes. In fact many will contribute if they are able. I suggest most look on sadly, a bit numb..in part because of a feeling of helplessness and in part because of immediacy.

it was a joke. A luxury, clearly.

Rod, you of all people should have been able to see where I was driving. I just preferred someone else to get there first.

You know I'm not daft. I know we need petrol.

Amazing how inward-looking we are in the civilised world, eh? Price of petrol? Shocking. 100,000 dead in Burma & China? Really, we never noticed. ;)

Well put Rich.

Also I'm not convinced we shouldn't be concerned about the 10% tax  - it's unfair and fits the lowest paid. We've already had members of the governemnt grateful for disasters as it takes the attention off them and the harm they're doing this country. Being concerned with that does nothing to demean the disasters in Burma & China. But at least we can try to fix one (our 'leaders').

Well there we have it Rich, & there we differ.

You can be as energised by fuel prices (lovely pun there, well done!) as you wish. Please don't speak for me though. I'd happily pay another £ a litre if we could find some way of easing the burden on those poor souls in Burma. That's what energises me. Not the price of bread in Tescos, or Petrol in Esso. The price of petrol is an irrelevance in the greater scheme of things, & yet everyone gets animated & excited by it. Because it reduces their disposable income. Shock, horror.

About 29,000 children under the age of five – 21 each minute – die every day, mainly from preventable causes.

This is conveniently forgotten about as it doesn't make good TV.

Yes, people die all the time every day. If we stopped to grieve every death none of us would ever get out of bed for uncontrolled sobbing.

Instead, we care about people we are directly connected to. Friends, family, people we know, people who live near us, people who are in situations we could have found ourselves in ('I cross that road every day where that lad was knocked down etc').

Foreigners dying on TV just isn't close enough to home to matter.

the price really is getting prohobitive.  A couple of years ago it cost £34-£40 to fill my car.  It now costs over £65 (best price round here at the moment is £113.9 in Sainsburys).  I'm going to start walking/taking the bus more as the weather improves, but it's a tight schedule with school runs/work and it helps being able to use the car.

We don't have to put the blame on the Government for attention-diverting disasters. Our own greed does that.

My dad always said you should live within walking distance from work or the railway station if necesarry. The world never stopped turning when the snow came or petrol prices went up. I remember when we had to queue for petrol and it was rationed at the local petrol station because of problems in the middle east. We still managed to get to school and work.

Petrol is a luxury, good health is not. People spend more money on petrol, alcohol and luxuries than they do on maintaining and achieving good health. There are other options - such as gas run cars, do we use them? No - because they're not as cool as the petrol ones.....our choice is that we want to be extravagant - so we can't complain about it imho.

I'd give more if I didn't have to spend all my money on bloody petrol ;D

I understand your view Tony, but there comes a point  (I know not when) when high indirect taxes (or higher unemplyment when companies have to cut staff as their costs cannot be passed on) push (lower) paid families into poverty, and at that point surely our two views begin to collide?

The point must be to have a mix of policies-domestic and international-that work to lift both those close to home and those far away out of poverty.

Where do we draw the line? I've replied already in agreement with Rich. Some disasters seem unfaceable/unfixable. That does not mean you don't try to fix what you can. The 10% tax, the cost of petrol, all things that affect the have nots in this country far worse than the haves, all things that we need to persuade our 'leaders' to do something about.

Where do you draw the line? Should we have raised money for Reece in light of Burma/China? Of course we should - we've made some friends' lives better (probably just by them knowing people care). The big disasters are terrifying & horrifying, but that shouldn't stop everything smaller IMHO.

Excellent point of course, and wisely made you clever fox, you....Can I call you "The Wiley Fox" from now on?..I think it suits.

The Burma Cyclone situation is horrible, as was the Earthquake in China..and the situation in Sierra Leone ..and the situation in North Korea..and, you'll have to trust me on this one, those things also really piss me off.

 Not the fact that a natural occurence happened in China and Burma, that can only make you sad,  but the way the Burma situation is handled by the government there..and how the UK govt "appeals for calm" whenever a terrible massacre happens somewhere (Rwanda) and how world leaders do F all when it comes to situations like Zimbabwe and Sierra Leone other than "Condemn it with the strongest words possible"...or how millions of people die of Aids or hunger in Africa and the idiots in charge over there decide that "Aids doesn't exist". I would love to post/rant every day about how those things tick me off and do something about it or move other people to feel the same way I feel about it and then maybe something can be done about it...but 1; it'd depress everyone on the forum, 2; it'd kill me..or I'd end up topping myself if I start doing that..so I've just decided to post the occasional comment in those threads and try to do what little I can in silence rather than keep posting how awful a situation like that is.
I think most people would rather moan about petrol prices than the situation in Burma and the likes because 1; They don't understand/comprehend the situation over there and 2; They feel they can't do anything about that and would therefore rather discuss a topic that they are more in control of.


p.s. (just in case it's needed as I wouldn't want you to get the wrong impression) when I rant about something that pisses me off it by no means means you've offended me by disagreeing with me...it just means that I have finally found something I can spout on about that I think people might actually listen to...if i do it about the situations discussed above peoples eyes tend to glaze over.

 ;sleep;



sorry, did you say something blondielocks?

I'm cogniscant of that. I was replying to your rejoinder......

no offense intended TK

I've apparently upset half of blonde in the last 2 months, & I have to tread  - & write - more carefully now. No more honesty, it's all wishy-washy cooey-wooey now.

bollocks to that grandad

I don't quite understand what their is to disagree with my statement, they are the facts to ME.  It's cheaper for me to get in the car for most journeys I make (FACT), its more convenient for me to drive (FACT). It is also faster to get from A to B driving (FACT).

I am not making political statements about the rights or wrongs of driving my car, nor am I making a judgment on how valuable petrol is in our society I am just saying how it is ffs.

If you only knew how many "friends" I've lost, & how much business I've cost blonde by being honest, (though 100% civil) you'd understand.

I'm on a short leash now.

It's very sad.

My apologies Mr Mouse. I respect your view, & it's relevance to you personally. I have a view, too.

And thanks, for making so well the point I was trying to explain to Claw. :)

the inverted commas are key.....

Well at least I've discovered how to kill a thread stone-dead, anyway.

 ;whistle;

We're all off talking to our friends...

lol :D

As fuel prices rise, those who need their vehicles for work pass on the rising costs to their customers. This works from the simple one-man decorator to the corporate chains of grocery suppliers.
Eventually, the cost is passed on to everyone who eats and drinks. And somewhere along this downward-spiralling road poverty begins to set in.
As we all know, where poverty breeds, illness and death breed too. Not only that, but the incapability to deal with anything the forces of nature may care to throw at us.
The irony is, it's the fuel we burn which is probably a major contributary factor of the terrible natural disasters which seem to occur with increasinging frequency.
I believe what annoys people more than anything is the fact that they have to work harder and longer for less and less. And when we have a moan about the so-called experts who are running our country, that doesn't mean we don't care about folk who are far worse off than ourselves.
As for the definition of 'luxury', that has to be down purely to individual interpretation dependent on their status in life.
I'll shut up now.

Well nobody's talking to me.

Oh - I see - doh! ;)

aw.   :hello: :kiss: :kiss:

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

Back to the opening post, it seems that there are a few different views, and possibly that Petrol is not the only problem here, that some of the arguments for and against are do do with government policy, the way the country is now being run.

I for one am saddened by the Burma situation, but why are we not knocking on their door with the army sending people in to help? China, supposedly (and I'm not clued up on this one) has one of the worst human rights problems, gets none to hardly any TV / Media coverage, yet the disaster has hit, and the way the Chinese government has acted (media reports again) they are making out they are the best thing since sliced bread, in comparison to the Burma government...

If things continue in this country the way they are there will be a change of government, (rightly or wrongly god only knows) but its human nature to worry more about your own situation rather than ones that you can do little or nothing to change..

I also think that a party or country that dealt more (or changed the system however you want to call it)with direct taxation rather than indirect taxation, would be a fairer  system, but without thinking to much about the statement i just made, im sure there would be massive flaws in it..

I think most people accept your view TK, but when it hits peoples pockets and they cant afford it, thats when we moan. I am even thinking of selling my Diesel car because petrol (yes petrol) would be more efficient and cheaper for me.. Also from a point of view of running/owning a poker site, dont you want people to have more disposable income !!

Ramble over....

2 Posters in this thread have now mentioned "poverty" in the context of the UK......

"Poverty" means different things to different people. But, in it's widest sense, I really don't see too much poverty in this country.

The price of oil going up (and therefore obviously petrol) is as inevitable as death and..... well, appropriately... taxes.
Oil resources are becoming more scarce, at least the ones that are easy to extract. As time goes by, the price of oil will reach $200 a barrel, $300 a barrel and so on. Nothing will stop this. Eventually it will become virtually impossible to own a car that runs on petrol, or have oil fired central heating.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward for cars we buy in another 10 years time once the technology is perfected.

For me, if I thought there was a genuine way to help all those you mention Tikay, I would do everything I could.  I've lost faith in most of the larger charity organisations as they spend too much of the raised funds before the suffering receive a cent.  I could pack up and head off to one of those locations, tuck in and do whatever needs doing, but who would mind my kids while I'm, gone? 

Then you take the people who have no children and make it their business to travel to the various 'torn' nations only to be met by local resistance.  Burma turned aid workers away.  Said they could handle it themselves.  It's a vicious circle.  Like being on a roundabout.  I reckon most people have just decided enough is enough, found their exit and are at 'worry about home' now.  Humanity has gone a bit callous in some regards and without a doubt, it bites.  But at the end of the day, what genuine suggestions can anyone make to turn things around?

That's fair, no you don't. However with mass unemployment (medium likely), higher petrol prices (almost certain) and recession (virtually there, a normal cycle) you'll see far more of it..but of course not on a less developed country scale of having to be worried about basic water supplies.

Nice Post, but "can't afford" is not really the end of the world, or true. We have the choice to allocate our disposable income howsoever we wish. We'd prefer that more of it went on "luxury" goods, fancy cars, posh holidays & nice kitchens,. so higher petrol prices "inconvenience" us. It's just a reallocation of how we spend our money. If we want to moan at rising fuel prices, we shall moan until we die. Nothing is more certain - fuel prices will continue to rise inexorably. The demand is growing, the supply is finite. That's how pricing mechanisms work. It's utterly futile to complain about rising fuel prices, because it will always be so. It takes a year or two for an oil-field to magically be transformed from forestation. We are using it quicker than it can be extracted, or "formed" It will all be gone within the lifetime of our younger readers - it will. So the price keeps rising. Surely we can all see that?

Sign your petitions all day & all night, but tell me this. Will the retail price of petrol, in 1 year, be less or more than it is now? And in 5 years? And in 10 years? And in 20 years? If you answered "more" to each question - & there's no other answer - what's the point of signing petitions? Will we sign them "K Canute"?

Recession "almost there". I blame the Government. Prices of our homes will fall, & that's a disaster. Or is it?.......

Poverty in the UK? I think not.

I mentioned on a previous thread that I'd heard Diesel was set to rise far quicker than petrol...

It has, & will. But I get 50% more MPG from Diesel. So it's OK. It's less more dear really.

Wot he said !!!

In some parts of the UK poverty already exists, whether we like it or not. I know, I have seen it.
Rising fuel prices affect all of us. As transport costs increase so do the things we buy. Like food.
When we get to the stage where we can't afford to buy food you will know why we are moaning.

Depends what driving you do really, but 50p a litre more expensive would hurt people!

I know why some are moaning. I just don't understand why. It won't change anything. Fuel Prices will rise - for ever. We have to get used to it.

"Not afford food"? I think not. The UK is absolutely awash with disposable income!

Please tell me this comment is a wind-up.
Either that, or explain it to the people currently struggling to keep a roof over their families heads.

with respect, this statement is 18 months out of date. There is a nasty squeeze on and a load are struggling

Hurt? No.

Inconvenience, annoy, irritate upset, disturb, yes.

But it is going to happen, I absolutely guarantee, petitions or not. Surely you don't dispute that?

So, please explain what good a petition wil do in the face of market forces? Or moaning?

House Prices are falling though. That's good, our kids can buy houses cheaper now. Oops - sorry - that means we get less when we sell them. Damn that half-empty glass.

Precisely!
Banging on about Burma and China on a thread about petrol??
No comparison at all, we all feel sympathy and we all shake our heads at the telly and some might even make a donation (on top of our taxed cash bein sent by Brown) but it is over there not here.
We were talking petrol prices.....

We're lucky.  We have a benefit sytem, a health service that is free to all at the point of use, we have a fair amount of freedom whilst at the same time enjoying a relatively high level of protection from crime or persecution.  We have a bloody good standard of living - higher I dare say than ever.

But we're only 60 million in a world of nearly 7 billion.  We are an unbelievably wealthy nation.  What do we do about everyone else?  What does everyone else do about us?

You seen the queue for Lottery Tickets on a Saturday night Rich? How many folks in In Betting Shops? How many '07 & '08 Reg Cars are around? How many folks play on 'Stars? How many go abroad on Holiday? Have two-car families? Eat Roast Beef on a Tuesday?

It's possible we, as a Nation, are a tinsy bit less well-off than we were a year ago. But we're doing pretty good.

on five live this evening there was a bloke on from the AA who said that currently you need to be doing 22,000 miles a year to benefit from Diesel (I don't do close, so from that advise I should have sold mine ages ago).. but he did say that Diesel demand is so high, that we are using it quicker than it can be refined, and thats why Diesel has risen at a rate of 1.5% above the rate that Petrol has risen.. Also, if it continues for the foreable future, then you would need to be doing 30,000 miles a year to see the benefit..


There is already poverty in some parts of the UK, not on the scale of 3rd world contries of course.. House Price's dropping, yes I think it may be a disaster for a lot of the lower paid people in work, who have heavily mortgaged their property during times of easy borrowings or boom as they call it. (I don't agree that they should have done it, and have been allowed to do it, to a certain extent but I am an accountant and were tight) but the fact remains, that if things continue as they are, a lot of people will lose their homes. The UK probably needs some kind of leveling out financially (I'm sure it will happen), but we will moan and moan about our own situation until we are secure, and when that is threatend, not much else will matter to the majority..

In terms of the vote, I agree TK, oil will continue to go up and up, prices will continue to go up and up, but surly not at the rate it is doing.. A petition will go into the bin, a vote at the next election will not, but saying that 60% of the people in the UK will be to busy watching their colour plasma screens to vote, so why should any government need to panic to much..

OK, the Thread Title was "Petrol Prices - Are They Too High - What Can we do about it".

That's two questions, both are well easy to answer.

1) No. There is a finite supply & a growing demand.

2) Nothing.

Suppose we could have a good old moan though, or sign a petition. Which will achieve precisely.......

Yes. I am loathe to characterise things in terms of "class" but I wasn't necessarily referring to the "double income" middle class where disposable income can get pinched severely before real pain is felt, more the "working" class or "blue collar" type professions/jobs.

I am involved in one sphere of my life in speaking to a number of these people on a personal level and I can assure you that a lot of these people are really hurting, and struggling to get by.

I admire your (housing) prudency.

But let me get this right. Are falling House Prices, overall, a good thing, or a bad thing? For you, &/or your kids?

Have you noticed the standard of living increasing over the same timescale as the increasing taxation or higher food/gas/electric?
The average wage rise is around 3% per annum, very much outpaced over the last couple of years at least.
We should be becoming more comfortable not less.
Those that want less luxury or who claim can still get by without it should move to Burma!

No offence but, I have never played the lottery, I have never been inside a betting shop, I drive an old banger, I don't play on Stars, I don't have holidays, I am not part of a two-car family, and I rarely eat roast beef.
I am also a lot worse off than I was last year despite working longer hours. At the moment I am not doing pretty good at all.
And I realise I am only one person but with regards to posters on this thread I represent a percentage.
You are probably right about fuel costs increasing and us not being able to do anything about it, but that shouldn't stop us trying. We can't do anything about cancer but we keep on trying, don't we?

What?
OMG!
We are a democracy dear fellow which means we can do something about it.

I'm sorry Tony but the fact it is a finite resource has nothing to do with the price of petrol.

What makes it ridiclous is that the oil companies charge 33p for the litre, the Government sticks a 300% mark up on it then has the frikking cheek to bang on the 17.5% on top again.

Its simply nothing but downright extortion!

And this is one of the big problems in Brittain , in my opinion. This fatalistic attitude; "There's nothing we can do about it" and "Whatever we do won't help". If the majority of people feel fuel is too heavily taxed and sign petitions and go on protest marches you can be pretty damned sure the govt would bring fuel tax down IF it believed it would get voted out of office if it didn't.
Right now, signing a petition won't help..because people don't even vote a govt. out of office over a war they didn't want to go to.
Unless "the people" DEMAND action to be taken; Lower taxes on fuel, more investment in alternative energy sources (in the case of this discussion) and all that stuff..on all subjects the government won't listen.

Will the price of oil go up? Yes, it's a finite resource as everybody knows. Does that mean that right now Gordon Brown has to add 2p tax to the price of fuel? Probably not...but he can..as people only moan.

You, the World, & his Wife, Mother-In-Law too, can do precisely nothing about rising prices of a commodity that is in increasing demand, and of finite quantity.

Fuel Prices, year-on-year, will always rise. Same as land. Because we use more of it, & they don't make it any more.

I refer the Welsh person to the answer given by my Honourable Friend, Mr Tebbit.

i have been living in America for just over 3 months now.
 
When i arrived a gallon (us gallon 80% of an english gallon) was $2.85  now its $3.60 so that is nearly a 30% increase in just 3 months

All i hear at the tables is complaints about the price of fuel. If only they knew how lucky they were over here getting it for about a 1/3 of the prices as the UK.

I had a taxi driver telling me that the state of Florida are about to make it a utility so they can control the profits of the Petrol (gas) compainies.

Life would be better if the govt control other income streams therefore not needing to tax so highly on petrol.

Over here there is no road tax disc what you have to do is register your license plate every year. If you dont they do something about it.

So if the govt did something about the vast number of people on the roads who dont pay there road tax and insurance before they hurt the people who do pay.

Petrol may not be a luxury but id rather see taxes on cigarates and alcohol hiked before petrol.

By the way my flight from London to Vegas cost me 508 around the same as it cost me last year.

America is the only true democracy and you can argue with that all you want.

The fact is they still only charge a "decent" amount of tax on petrol and how our Governement gets away with what it does is unreal!

If the tories would simply make the promise/commitment to lowering fuel prices or the tax on it, they would simply stroll into 10 downing street.

Gordon Brown is nothing more than a glorified accountant puppeteering alistair darling and does not take into account what "his" nation wants but instead how to keep the budget afloat. Makes me sick!

It still makes me laugh how many people still believe it is down to the greedy oil companies robbing us when in truth they drill it, ship it, refine it and deliver it for 33p, I think thats pretty amazing to be honest!

If it wasn't for taxes Petrol would be cheaper than bottled water..that is indeed truly astonishing. and an almost 300% tax on anything essential is a disgrace.

Not sure about America being the true democracy though as..well..they only have 2 real parties after all.....but that's beside the point me thinks.

Necessity breeds invention and all that, I'm pretty confident they'll think of something before the oil runs out.
It was joked about on the Lager price thread but what's to stop alcohol being used as fuel ? infinite resources, technology already exists, all you need are bigger distillation plants and something to stop people drinking it.
Another thing I have always thought will be possible and would solve plenty of the worlds power/fuel problems would be to harness the power of lightning. Sounds stupid but when people marvelled at how they built that hadron collider and what it can achieve then you must think that it is within the realms of possibility for us to harness lightning also?

2.21 gigawatts   FTW

I have been driving for 13 years now, the petrol prices have jumped to more than double the price they were back then.

The price of fuel is at a disgraceful rate at present given we pump and refine our own.


As for who is hardest hit, i see from my personal circumstances how hard it hits my family, I recently went back to join the working populace after a long period of illness & the stark reality is driving a car costs too damn much, between insurance, tax, repairs & maintenance and fuel its not sustainable without a major sacrifice within the family unit.

Now to address the other point made early in the thread, the government wasting money; you bet they do, the company I currently work for is a NDGB ( non departmental government body ) we are given £200 Million per year to run the company, from that we deliver on a £115 million pound contract that is open to other private providers to offer provision.

On top of that we have 61 factories across the UK that has a 34% output rate, purely due to no work for the staff to perform, Bear in mind the people on the factories are paid if there is work or not & they are still on a government contract  and will never be made redundant unless they ask to be. ( i am guessing you all know who I work for at this point )

Here is the real pincher, the sales team responsible for providing work at the factories not only do they give away the service but they often use part of the funding for the factories to subsidise the work being carried out, I have met some of these guys and they could not sell a pie to a hungry man.

Bear in mind this is a Government agency and a drop in the ocean when it comes to the UK government coffers although the addage is look after the pennies ...... ( lets see who can finish it )

taxation.

Finally the lorry driver's have decided to do something. Have you seen the news today. They blocked a major road today, I think the M1 going into London. Not only are petrol and diesel prices likely to increase, but so is car Tax. What are we going to do about this ?

use my car less, not much else you can do i dont think, what happens if they take 5p a litre off, its £1.20 instead of £1.25... hardly makes much difference over the whole scheme of things. Vote at the next election is the best way imo..

competition on the radio yesterday - prize was to win a tank full of petrol.  A sign of the times, especially when I found myself thinking 'that would be worth winning' ;D

5p off more like 50p off. Then I think we would be happy.

Never in a million years would they knock off 50p a litre in tax..... who is going to pay for that reduction

Especially given the lower than expected tax revenues from the banks who are making less due to the credit crunch.

They actually blocked the A1M, I've just heard it on the local news. The prices have gone up by HALF A PENCE for the last 2 months.

Petrol still 1.10 near me, is it alot more down s'arf?

115.9 here.  well, it was yesterday - probably gone up since then!

Blimey, for once in my recent life going to take train to London next month, got two returns from Leeds for a grand sum of £40. Much cheaper than driving :)

Strange thoughts we are having..sod banking investmant plans, buy a big under ground tanker n fill it up with petrol. Save one a fortune.

£1.12 a litre of petrol. £1.27 a litre of diesel. No wonder everything is so expensive, and the country's in a mess.

We spend an absolute fortune on petrol going back n forth to Manchester, we have no choice we have to go and we want to go too. But these prices put a strain on everyones pocket regardless of circumstances.

just on the phone to Matt - 117.9 near his work :o

How much!!! That's unbelievable.

LARGS to MILLPORT ferry yesterday

£26 return for the car, 2 adults and 3 nippers

i think its a mile or less to the island


takes 10 minutes....

rip off britain....bye Millport ,we had fun but i can no longer afford you

and you can stick your £20 bike hire up yer .......bleeeeepppppp

Filled my car on the way home from work today - £82.

Absolute joke.

another sign of the times that we talk about petrol prices during our chit-chats!

a lubricant by another name of course Claw.

That's a week's wages for some people.

lol, listen to the blonde expert here - just because you got lost trying to find dtd and went thru all these countries at least once doesnt make you an expert on world fuel prices!! :D

rotflmfao

He's also set his cars on fire using petrol from all of those countries.

jeez, I go to the wrong country once and set fire to my car twice. that's all but you lot won't let up.

and Matt I was trying to find Cardiff not DTD when I accidentally went to Holland. at least get your facts straight if you're going to pick on me

How many countries did we all visit on the way to the footy at the bash?

;ashamed;

I'm just glad my car wasn't involved - must have cost at least a tenner per car getting there...

we save the motor-oil discussions for face-to-face :)

Thats what it is in the "cheapest" station in my area now!


Yes, my Audi drank a lot of petrol that weekend, first finding the hotel in the one way system, and eventually finding it only to find I was looking for the wrong one!

And then the football....lol....what a kafuffle!

yeah I know - look who won it!

Ah the Wesh, what a great race. Overcame the odds to steamroll the opposition! on points difference!

Removed my post as Mr Nun has already posted, he really shoud sign into his on account. ;smackedbottom;

QFT

Shame about those pesky lot the other side of the bridge eh :D

What about the proposed increase in Road Tax ?

Horendous!!!

Fact of the day - France collects more revenue in fuel duty than it does in income tax.

How does one plan for an environmentally healthier future that requires less car usage, less emissions that logically requires duty on less fuel efficient cars to rise, whilst still making it affordable to consumers in an environment when external pressures on the oil price are enormous?

Reason for this? When in the south of france dining at a very posh restaurant they only took cash - thats it - nothing else. When asked why the owner said because he didn't enjoy paying tax. Very blatant and seeingly a blind eye is turned...

There is something I can do for you.

I am bulk buying these in to sell on.

Is the one with wings sold as seen?? If so I'll take 2!

Fuel price.

Honestly i don't really care, if its 1.00 or 1.25 i am not going to notice, if i felt it got to high i would switch to a more efficient car or i would revert back to public transport.

I understand what you are saying, nut to me all this does is to "tax" the not so well off - thus making having a car elitist.

It wont actually affect the number of cars on the road just like putting the price of cigarette's up doesnt reduce the number of smokers.

I personally think you will now get more and more driving without road tax, just as more and more tobacco products are bought into this country from abroad.

I understand the problem, but do not think this is the solution.

Road tolls would be a better way in my view - but they would need to be on routes that have very good public transport - ie Cambridge to London etc...

Or base the road tax on the mileage travelled in the year - with the automation of the MOT process this wouldnt be that difficult to administer - this way, the more you use, the more you pay. Presently, if you have a more environment friendly vehicle and travel 50k per annum you pay less than someone with a not so environment friendly vehicle who only does say 10k per annum - but the damage to the environment could be worse in the "more environment friendly" vehicle.

Yep - less than half the French population pay any income tax at all. Not only the avoiders, but the number of exemptions is huge.

If only life was that simle for us all.

scrap road tax and put it onto the cost of petrol 1/2p a litre no-one would notice and at least then its a pay as you drive system much fairer imo

Fuel tax is horrendous and should be changed, or certainly frozen.  Also, they should build more refineries so we can process the oil that's sat about waiting to be refined.  The backdating of car duty really suck and the increase is outrageous too. 

1.00 or 1.25 perhaps doesn't make that much difference, but the cost of the price last year and 1.25 is one hell of an increase, not far of 50% and that is certainly noticeable.

There is no short term fix for all this. Sadly, the arrangement of where we live and work in this country (city centre for work, suburbs/commuter towns for living) revolves around the car.

There is simply no way the public transport system could ever be upgraded to the point where everyone could abandon their cars and carry on living our lives in the same way.

The only way to change things would be for everyone to either live closer to work, or work closer to home. Fewer large conurbations and more smaller towns/villages. More working from home. More cycling to work - most people whose commute is less than a few miles could easily cycle to work (which would have massive health benefits as well). But far too many people live 20, 30 or 50 miles from their jobs because they can't afford to live closer.

But all this is not going to change quickly, it would take a generation at least.

I filled my car for £39 last night at Sainsburies.

So i got a full tank, a bottle of lucozade and change from £40, i still think this is decent value.

That lucozade is going to play havoc with the engine.

How often do you HAVE to use your car?

Everyday. Darren needs it to go to work, I can use the bus. We need it to get to the hossy, as if we were to use the public transport after we had done our shifts it would take forever to get there thus cutting visits down to a minimum. Then we deffy need it to transport his machines etc.

Is there no public transport to get to work for Darren? Does no-one else who works with him live nearby? How far is the hossy?

Darren would find it very hard to get ladders and a bucket on the bus. Hospital is at Pendlebury, Manchester, we live the oppo side of Huddersfield.

I filled mine up and got 2 bags of marshmallows for £45.

I did feel ripped off though, as the sign said 2 bags for £2 and yet I got charged full price for both.

I then forgot to take the marshmallows to the bbq, which sucked.

Brag: you now get them all to yourself tho.

Bless you, that cracked me up :)

This post reminds me of the woman who told me "I don't care how much petrol goes up, I always have £10 worth so it makes no difference to me"

Horneris's car

(http://www.modernmicrocars.co.uk/images/p50sale.jpg)

Isn't that the smallest car in the world, the one that Jeremy Clarkson drove around the offices in.

Do you still use Chips card to fill up your car? :P

I think it is.  I've just noticed how small and totally ineffective the windscreen-wiper is on that car.  What's the point?

Very effieicent I think!

Surely the wiper needs to wipe the screen, not a minute area of it?

It only needs to wipe the bit you look out of. If you think of where your eye line would be in something that small then it will be right. The rest on the windscreen will probably only be looking at the bonet from such a high tight line. I would guess.
The wiper isn't the reason I'll be getting one.

Is that like when it snows and the car is covered, and people wipe a small letter-box sized area clear on their windscreen and then drive? 

I'd imagine it's like driving a tank. they probably just have a little hole to look through. having a big hole would allow people to shoot bullets at the driver

No. They don't make allowances for gravity or back wash from the flow of air. This design does.

Flow of air - rotflmfao - only on a windy day!

lol, I put 60 quid in my car the other day (last me a week and a half max) and it still wasnt full.

Bring on the new car, not coz its more efficient, just coz it has a smaller tank so will seem like i'm fillling up for less!  ;D ::) :'(

Gordon Brown has warned that high oil prices are here to stay as Downing Street played down speculation over a U-turn on road and fuel taxes.

The Prime Minister said that while he wanted to help the "hardest hit" families, the problem of global demand outstripping supply was "long-term".

"Of course in the current situation we are trying to do things that will help those families who are hardest hit," Mr Brown said. "This is not just a national problem. It is a global problem of supply and demand, not just in the short term but the medium term and the long term."

The comments, at a meeting with industry leaders in Scotland, came as the Government unveiled moves to boost North Sea oil production by up to 70,000 barrels a day.

Business Secretary John Hutton said it was vital Britain made maximum use of its resources to ease pressure on the economy.

However, there was still confusion over how ministers would respond to anger among the public and Labour backbenchers over the planned rises in road and fuel taxes.

In the wake of strong hints from Cabinet ministers on Tuesday, Number 10 played down suggestions there could be a U-turn over the 2p hike in fuel duty and controversial reforms to road tax.

"Of course we understand the concerns consumers face, but we also need to take into account the need to ensure economic stability, to fund public services and to promote energy efficiency," the Prime Minister's spokesman said.

"All that John Hutton and Jack Straw were saying yesterday was nothing more than of course the Government understands the concerns that consumers face."

I just had to put this on here.

The price of Petrol is not a supply and demand issue at the moment. I was stunned (and laughing) when I saw Brown had traveled up to Aberdeen to tell Oil producers to produce more oil to lower fuel prices..I expect their answer was "Why don't you lower your 300% tax a bit?"

What do you mean by 300% mate, is that how much tax we pay mate.

(http://www.petrolprices.com/images/fuelgraph.jpg)

About 31% of the price you pay in petrol is actually for the petrol itself (and its production/delivery). The retailers get about 4% - the rest is duty and VAT.

That is disgusting. So they could lower the prices if they wanted to.

The government could reduce the tax on petrol, but would then have to obtain this revenue from elsewhere or alternatively cut spending on pubic services.

and, to give the counter argument..build less schools, hospitals, prisons etc

Whichever party was in power would do exactly the same, they can't reduce the tax on it else where they gonna get the huge shortfall of cash already spent. It's away with the fairies thinking something drastic can be done.

One argument is that they didn't, which is why the NHS was underfunded, as were the train networks, etc.

the uk used to run in financial surplus..finaincial services income mainly but also North Sea Oil

Now we are a net importer of Oil. With higher government spending we now have a big budget deficit.

Reducing petrol taxation is virtually impossible under any political party whilst that is the case, unless it is replaced by higher direct taxation, which is often political suicide

I hear the MoD has 67 bilion to spend on Nuclear missiles and 4 Billion on Aircraft carriers that are completely useless unless we're thinking of fighting the Russians again.

In an unstable world I would think such defence spending is pretty plausible. In any case its been reduced dramatically over two decades now post cold war

I don't mind defence spending at all (in fact I'm for it) but the MoD has been asked to find 15% worth of savings..so they have to cut their costs but we spend 67 billion on a system we will never use...that seems odd to me.

It's not the spending I have a problem with..it's the massive inefficiencies of it.

Just got a quote from a Helicopter company for a job we will be doing up in the Islands (wayyyyyy up north ..even higher than Aberdeen) it's now 33k whereas in January it was 20k ..we now have less flying time but the bill is 50% ish higher.The only reason for the rise in price is the rise in fuel costs 69% higher for a helicopter in the past 5 months. The helicopter company I am dealing with is almost going under because of it...very sad.

We're secretly planning to nuke Holland.

lol..you only need 1 nuke..burst the dyke and the country is gone :)l

?

(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/12/07/bethditto_narrowweb__300x487,2.jpg)

Scrap the NHS, reduce petrol prices, then listen to these same people whine about no health service.

The attitude of some people in this country tilts me hard!

that would do it

You could always stick your finger in the dyke to save the Netherlands.

I saw her live. She got naked. She didn't mean to, her clothes just didn't want to stay on her.

rotflmfao

I agree.

fantastic voice though - was it good?

tomorrow I'm going to find out for definite how much it costs to fill my car nowadays.  It's running on fumes at the moment, and tomorrow is payday!

There talking about the petrol prices on Question time at the moment.

has Beth Ditto had a mention yet?

I stopped watching Question Time as it just tilts me hard..It's a political version of Jerry Springer these days with idiots in the audience and a few opportunists on the panel...blah.

I suppose you are with Bupa with being a Pro and not haveing to pay NI, we possibly all would be if we could afford. NI contributions are small compared to the service we get from the NHS, I also agree that we would possibly be better doing like the USA but also alot of tax changes would have to be implemented too. I can not see this happening during my remaing years.

They were on the main stage at Reading, I was quite far back just relaxing - not the best place to judge someone's voice!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The Health service in the States is awful.

Oh well thats not good then.

We'll just have to take the rising costs of petrol then , no moaning just commute everywhere. I work on the trains and they can not cope with the volumes during peak times. So many times we leave many many folk on platforms.

I am making a point, people in this country seem to want something for nothing, the NHS has to be funded, if we start cutting petrol tax then things like the NHS will suffer. It's a simple choice, lower taxes less services, higher tax more service.

As it happens i think healthcare could be reformed no end in this country, i would love to see a governent start some sort of reward system for companies that cover thier staff with health insurance thus easing the burden on the NHS. There are too many people using the NHS when in reality they could quite easily afford to go private, this would allow the NHS to improve no end and help those people who can't afford to go private far more efficently.

I might be biased (I am a lefty apparently) but I recommend you watch Micheal Moore's "Sicko" and see what it's like in the states.

They have no Universal Healthcare there, the only "Western" nation not to have it, and unless you are insured up to the hilt (Expensive) you will go broke (or at least have massive amounts of debt) if you have any chronic illness whatsoever.

Cuba's health service is meant to be good.  Did you experience it?

If you have $ its great

Cuba is quite impressive in that respect.

They are a fairly poor country as they can't trade with America or American companies but they do have Universal Healthcare and a good education system.
The hospital in Havana looks impressive (Also shown in Michael Moore's "Sicko" )and according to those that know about this sort of stuff it is top-notch.

Castro has done as good a job as you could expect really, the people seem happy even though they are relatively poor. They are very proud of their country and the history of it. The education system is free, the health service is top class and free (Though you do have to pay for your medication...but that's dirt cheap a it's VERY heavily subsidised). They take care of the elderly in a decent way as well.
I was amazed, I have been to Russia in the past and hated the way the Kremlin ran the country..mainly through fear and intimidation. The Kremlin leaders were living their good life and their people were starving.
Castro (Both Fidel and Raul) and his ministers do not take ridiculous amounts of money out of the system. They do not buy expensive watches and cars when their people are struggling.

I guess that's the difference between communism by revolutionaries (Castro and Co) and communism by politicians.

I do not know which direction Cuba will take after the Castros are gone, both of them are still highly respected by the Cubans and therefore a move towards capitalism isn't even being considered by most Cubans but as soon as the "26th of Juy" boys are gone the country might very well go tits up. For now..I was VERY impressed and convinced that if the Americans could stop being soo stubborn and allow trade with Cuba again Cuba could be a very successful country. (Although it would probably mean McDonalds would move into Havana and destroy whatever is there)

Doesn't matter a toss how good your health insurance is in America...you will STILL pay through the nose.  Then they only cover a certain percentage (after you meet your deductible - which varies, but isn't cheap) and only if THEY feel the procedure is required and only by THEIR choice of doctors.  That goes for any medical condition as well as maternity.  I had 2 of our children there.  Cost about 5k each time.  I've had cancer twice.  Second time was serious enough to require extra treatment after the surgery and was discovered while I was pregnant with our 2nd child.  So add maternity AND medical for that year.  Our son had a kidney disorder (in remission for the past 10 years), but that was ongoing from the age of 1 while we were living over there. 

Long and short of it, we had saved a nice chunk of change planning to move to Ireland and build a house when we were young, working and had no children.  By the time we finally made the move, we had very little money left and no jobs lined up.  Got jobs within the week and continuing medical covered, so it was like winning the lotto to us.  Taxes are higher here.  Food and clothes cost a bit more too.  Petrol is insane compared to over.  But would I move back to America?  Not a hope.  With all the health issues we've had in the past, we count ourselves lucky for the added wee expense each day as we know we'll be ok in the end. 

wow you have gone through alot Laxie!

I am not sure what policy my wife had but her knee surgery (pioneering at the time) didn't cost her a bean. She spent a week in hospital, treated like a queen, given excellent medical aftercare. The operation was not available in the Uk in 2000 and its only just being done here 8 years later. So we have a favorable take on it, but yes I appreciate getting ill can be very costly if you are not completely covered. Saying that just because it's free over here does not mean we should accept the complete shower of shit standards the NHS often delivers.

agreed..but the NHS should not be compared to the health service in the States..it should be compared to other European countries where they also have free health service which is better run than the NHS.

where 'free' means 'free at point of use', not 'free of cost' - we still pay for the NHS.

Yes of course :)

I heard today, there was a 13p difference in a litre of diesel within a 1 mile radius. How do they justify this.

I've never understood why we generally seem to want to exercise personal choice in most everything but real debate about the health service seems taboo.

I don't think people want government to provide us with a house, a car, clothes, blah blah, but when it comes to our most important choice in terms of looking after ourselves we seem, in general, to want the government to provide it - yet, Governments just don't do 'efficient' or 'good service'.

It's a bit like universal child benefit -it's a ridiculous notion but hard to challenge without sounding reactionary  - I can genuinely say all the child benefits I received should have gone to someone more needy.

The NHS is an extension of the benefits system and so encourages us to abdicate responsibility for ourselves and hand over control to a higher power - its a bit like a religion.

Why are we so incapable of reducing the tax take by making people pay for their own services rather than public services and at the same time look after the genuinely needy ? It can't be that difficult

lol Really? How does the NHS treating people for free (at the point of service) means people relinquish responsibility..I don't get that at all? If it shouldn't be that difficult to change it how would you do it? Surely you must have an idea.

I agree on child benefits not being neccesary..in fact I disagree with child benefits on principle..I should not have to pay simply because people choose to breed.

OK lets take this a stage further then boldie, If we don't have a system to "help" people with kids, what happens to the next generation?  with we just have more kids dropping out of school? More kids draining the benefits system at 16/17/18  you either support them now when its +EV to give them every chance possible or later when the damage is done and no bugger gives a toss because they will be labled a "lazy bastard"

Supporting them later costs more....

Take Glasgow as an example its almost a 40% unemployment rate (including people on incapacity benefit), of that number      around 80,000 are between the ages of 17 - 24.

Now what caused this? 

answers on a post card please.

Irn-Bru?

 ;smackedbottom;

LolmcLol, Boldie it's simple - we're not allowed to take responsibility because we have no choice about our money being taken and spent this way. We hand over power to someone else to provide what they feel we deserve - personally, in matters of my and my family's health (above all other services I purchase), I prefer to choose who I pay for the service.

So... actually many of us do take responsibility for ourselves, and also pay for the rest of you, rich and less rich alike.

Why 'free at the point of delivery' is some kind of shibboleth I don't fathom. If I insure myself with a better provider than the NHS it is 'free at the point of delivery' anyway so it's just one of the nonsense phrases bandied about in the debate.

And as for idea - I would privatise the NHS - use some of the cost saving to reduce taxes and some to provide higher benefits to those genuinely in need (rather than idle). With higher properly targeted benefits then people, even on benefits, could still choose where to buy their healthcare. Just like they choose their supermarket or car or beer or whatever.

If anyone thinks  that government can ever deliver a competitive solution then ...... cuckoo !

I need a doctor after being shafted by British Gas (or whatever it is called now) because they are completely taking the piss and can do what they want now they are privatised.

They make whatever profit they want on the back of increased fuel costs and there is nothing we can do, because something the people owned was sold off. Its a false economy, we save in the short term and would end up paying more in the long term for health care.

rotflmfao..sorry but someone actually still believes privatisation works? PFI actually cost tax payer money, private and faith schools cost tax payer's money, network rail....well I'm thinking you can see where I'm going.

It is fine that there are private hospitals but they sure as hell should not be paid for with tax payers money. (as quite a few of them are now) The only country where almost all hospitals are privatised is the US, the cost of healthcare is through the roof over there, the cost of insurance is through the roof over there as well.. so how exactly would the poorer/worse off or even middle class people afford this?

A hospital as a profit making organisation is possible but it sure as heck's patootin' will not lead to the worse off being cared for.
If anyone thinks that privatisation leads to healthy competition in this case while still providing for the needy they are delusional..not just cuckoo but really..plain delusional...really..honestly...nuts..crazy..insane...

*walks off mumbling to himself and shaking his head*

uber tilt@ this post..just going to leave it I think.

Very simple, poor parenting and people having to many kids. 40% unemployment rate, my arse..I (and almost everybody in Glasgow) can walk into any employment agency in Glasgow tomorrow and get a shitty job..but a job that pays some bills. Almost EVERY 17-24 YO is fit enough to work..the fact that they don't makes me wonder about their mentality.

Really, I don't see how the above can be taken as a defense for the universal child benefits scheme...or how it is even related to it. If you can't afford to have children..you don't have children...not that difficult really, is it? If I can only afford to have one child...I should not go to the government for money to pay for 2 or 3.
Child benefits were started to get people to have more kids...not to help people who had children and were struggling.

I already pay for the schools, and subsidise the universities so people's kids can go to that.
.I should NOT have to pay to feed them or clothe them or keep the electricity running..that is the parents' job. I'm not going to ask YOU to feed my kids when I have them..I'll do that myself.

Really, people who can easily make ends meet still get a bit of cash because they have a kid..it's ridiculous..and the people that defend it always go on about the "needy" kids...needy my arse..if your parents both work they don't need to get money from the government to feed you..

If someone is on benefits they should get a decent amount of money that takes care of their family but not every parent should get a bit of "breeding money" simply because they know how to procreate (or rather don't know where to buy a profilactic).

Haven't read the last 19pages as i simply cant really be arsed but 2 things 1 on original topic fuel prices are a joke but cant see fuk all we can do about it.2ndly and the only reason i'm actually posting on here 4 is if when i'm serioulsy ill if i've been stupid enough not to pay into a private health place and need to really on the nhs to take care of me i will be purcashing a gun and end it there and then they nhs is a fukn joke imo just like the govt as a whole is.
 

Tosh, there are plenty of ways to reduce government spending.
It's the naive or the taxors (is that a word?) that claim the only way to lower tax is to cut back on health and services.

I know how they could save £200 million straight away.

Tax poker, see if flushy thinks there's no problem then!

"..sorry but someone actually still believes privatisation works? PFI actually cost tax payer money, private and faith schools cost tax payer's money, network rail....well I'm thinking you can see where I'm going"

No I can't see where you're going but the info tends to reinforce my view rather than change it. It would also be easy to list many very succesful privatisations but you're intelligent so you know this.

I agree PFI's  are a waste of time and they shouldn't cost the taxpayer anything - let government just get out of the way completely and we'll all get what we're prepared to pay for.

Privatising the health service is a nonsensical idea. Running hospitals for profit?

Private companies only work in places where there the consumer has a genuine choice. When there isn't a choice, it doesn't work. Look what happened to the railways.

If I break my leg here in London, I'm not going to choose to go to an A&E in Cardiff because I heard they provide a good service, or are cheap. I'm going to go to the closest one.

Can someone explain how this private health service is going to work better than the NHS? Or give successful examples of public industries which were made private to the benefit of the general population?

I couldn't agree more Boldie, also the amount of people claiming Working Family Tax Credit. There are people I know who are quite comfortably off, both parents working, two cars, nice house yet they get rewarded for having kids.
When the government eventually start taxing us on how big our carbon footprint is I'm looking forward to getting a carbon neutral rating due to the fact I haven't spawned any oxygen depleting, carbon dioxide and methane emitting nappy wearing little darlings. If people wish to own these environmentally unfriendly products they should be taxed to the hilt not rewarded IMHO.
 

It won't. The USA has private health care and has caused the greatest health inequalities in the world in that country. If you don't give a chite about people who can't afford health care insurance then I guess you could argue that it works. If anyone has watched ER you will see numerous examples of people who come time and time again to the emergency room because they are in health crisis because they don't have the insurance for their long term health condition and the drugs they need to take for it. In the UK people get better access to healthcare and have their long term conditions managed and treated in a way to reduce health crisis.

There are many examples of poor practice in the NHS but there are thousands more of good and excellent practice, you just don't get them being reported.

Keep your private health care!!

Boldies point about PFIs is true, they do cost taxpayers money but its supposed to be short term spend for long term gains. PFI maintain properties so thats a cost reduction for the NHS and they also save captital tax on a year on year basis because they don't own the PFI buildings. Whether or not it does what it says on the tin is another story. We will find out in a hundred years when the the NHS leases with PFI ends....then the NHS will have the choice to build, pay maintainance and capital charges on their own or wheel in another version of PFI.

Indeed, I live in a neighbourhood where everybody is fairly well off and has 2 kids. Why should they recieve child benefits? I just don't see it..

PFI seems to be mentioned a few times .... Pardon my ignorance, but what does it stand for ?

the biggest problem with tax credits from a personal (and selfish) point of view, is that they are based solely on income and no allowance is made for geographic considerations.  I can't get tax credits - I earn too much (although my earnings are not that high above the average for London).  The cost of childcare in London is considerably higher than elsewhere (when my daughter was in full-time nursery it cost in the region of £1100 a month before she turned 3 - at a competitively priced nursery). That added to the high cost of renting down here meant that, even when I was with my husband (who has a similar income to mine), we couldn't afford to live anywhere bigger than a small flat with no garden, and couldn't entertain the idea of having two cars.  If help is going to be given to people with children, I'd like to see some element of standard of living/disposable income measure introduced.

Private Finance Initiative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Finance_Initiative

Its like having a lease car where you pay a monthly/yearly sum and get the car maintained with new tyres, MOT and services etc. The NHS however pays a great deal up-front but this is supposed to prevent long term costs arounds its maintainace and tax. The big problem in my eyes is with a lease car you dont own it at the end of the contract and its the same with PFI's. The NHS will never own those buildings.

and they are paying well over the odds...never clever.

lol this will make everyone happy

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=18135

"Britain’s diesel prices are the lowest in Europe before tax – but the highest once tax has been added on, official Government figures have revealed.

The figures show that UK drivers are struggling with the biggest tax burden in Europe, and it is only likely to get bigger.

In Britain the average pre-tax price for diesel was 48.8p per litre during April, but that spiralled to 116.6p per litre at the pump. This means taxes account for a mighty 58% of the total price.

It’s a similar story with unleaded petrol. The average pre-tax price was 41.2p per litre in April – the third lowest in the EU – but this rose to 107.6p once taxes were added.

After tax, 18 other countries had cheaper unleaded, according to the figures from the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform.

The shocking statistics come in the same week that truckers staged a protest in London, calling for the Gordon Brown to tackle rising fuel costs.

The Tories said the latest statistics showed that the Government could not blame international fuel costs for sky-high prices at the pumps.

Shadow chief secretary to the Treasury Philip Hammond said: 'Gordon Brown's claim that world oil prices are to blame for the soaring cost of motoring has been exposed as a sham. The blame lies squarely with him.'

A Treasury spokesman denied that fuel taxes were too high, saying they were justified because they were green and designed to reduce carbon consumption."

Jane was in Isle of Wight yesterday, and brought back the local paper ... They are paying up to £1.44.9p for diesel & £1.25.9p for unleaded ... I spose they should be glad they have nowhere really to rack up the miles on the Island!!

I'm completely against this.  People can move freely around this country, even the EU. If it was on disposable income I could just chose to live in a nicer house leaving me with less disposable income.  Salary is by far the most effective thing for it to go on.

Yes, and apparently that was/is the highest in the UK.

Whilst they are limited in area size on the Island, they also have to travel around it more to get the services they need (most 'towns' being villages really), so in effect they will always have to use more.

the problem being it costs the providers more to get them the petrol on the IOW I assume.

Yes, it's the same on islands in Scotland

In theory, yes.  In reality, it's not always that easy.  I am tied to the area in which I live as my ex-husband and I share custody of our daughter, who goes to a local school.  I don't think it'd go down too well if I told him I was moving the arse end of nowhere and he'd have to come with me :)

That said, I was on a bit of a downer when I posted this the other day - it doesn't actually bother me too much, and I agree income is the most effective thing to go on - just fed up with being skint and not being able to get the help that other people who seem to have a better quality of life are entitled to.

Not wanting to make the situation even worse, but consider this: Oil is priced in US Dollars which are performing poorly at the moment at around 2 to 1. Imaging how much worse things will get if / when the dollar stregthens against the pound! Another 30% on the base price, then taxes on top of that are calculted as a percentage, then VAT is another percentage, so it has an even worse effect.

Predictions are fuel prices will be at £1.75 per litre by Christmas and £2 per litre this time next year.

Any one for cycling!

The Americans are crying, because there prices are reaching £2 a gallon.

Jesus, it'll almost make rail travel a cost effective choice.

And the only reason it's still being traded in dollars is that the US economy would be crippled if it wasn't. Iraq, Iran and Venezuela already trade in Euros..a very good case can be made for oil now needing to be traded in Euros (Euro is a lot more stable) but the worlds biggest economy would go into a deep recession over night if that were to happen...and that's a nono.

Maybe we should look at alternative means of transport.

The NHS does a brilliant job for millions of people on a daily basis.  That's despite the under-funding and the other problems that have been highlighted.

As an example, I don't think there's any other country in the world I'd rather be if I needed a heart by-pass operation.  But like you've said, these positive stories don't make good headlines.

from a blog

OK, so I know this a bit of racial stereotyping (where "race", in the broadest sense, means American drivers), but this made me chuckle.

    In the Philadelphia area, where the average price for a gallon of regular broke $4 on Friday, calls from out-of-gas AAA members doubled between May 2007 and May 2008, from 81 to 161, the auto club reported.


    In Dallas, Courtesy Patrol - a roadside assistance program operated by the sheriff's department - reports a doubling in the number of daily fuel calls from stranded motorists in recent months. Sheriff Lupe Valdez herself recently came to the aid of a mother and her two children who had run out of gas along an interstate.



Apparently a few drivers in America think that economizing on fuel implies putting less in the tank when you go to the gas station, rather than actually driving fewer miles.

The AAA guy quoted in the National Examiner showed how intrinsic the use of a car is to the American populus.

    "Some of them are embarrassed. ... They say, 'I was trying to make it till Friday,' and they couldn't do it," said [AAA roadside assistant] Siley, who has assisted numerous out-of-gas motorists.



I guess that people have an allocation of, what $30 a week for gas, and that's what they put in. When it was 99 cents a gallon (and I recall seeing this price in Las Vegas) this meant that you often got a nice $30 'holiday'. Now that the price is $4, it means that you run out of petrol.

Subject: Tips on Fuelling / gas filling your vehicle
 


SERIOUSLY VERY USEFUL TIPS!!!
 
Tips on Filling your Vehicles...

This is a Message received from a friend:

I don't know what you guys are paying for petrol... but here in Durban, we are also paying higher, up to 47.35 per litre. But my line of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for every litre.

Here at the Marian Hill Pipeline, where I work in Durban, we deliver about 4 million litres in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline.

One day is diesel; the next day is jet fuel, and petrol, LRP and Unleaded. We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of 16,800,000 litres.

ONLY BUY OR FILL UP YOUR CAR OR BIKE IN THE EARLY MORNING WHEN THE GROUND TEMPERATURE IS STILL COLD.
Remember that all service stations have their storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground, the denser the fuel, when it gets warmer petrol expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening.... your litre is not exactly a litre.

In the petroleum business, the specific gravity and the temperature of the petrol, diesel and jet fuel, ethanol and other petroleum products play an important role. A 1degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But the service stations do not have temperature compensation at the pumps.

WHEN YOU'RE FILLING UP, DO NOT SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER OF THE NOZZLE TO A FAST MODE. If you look, you will see that the trigger has three (3) stages: low, middle, and high. In slow mode, you should be pumping on low speed, thereby minimizing the vapours that are created, while you are pumping. All hoses at the pump have a vapour return. If you are pumping on the fast rate, some of the liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapour. Those vapours are being sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TIPS IS TO FILL UP WHEN YOUR TANK IS HALF FULL. The reason for this is, the more fuel you have in your tank, the less air occupying its empty space. Petrol evaporates faster than you can imagine. Petroleum storage tanks have an internal floating roof. This roof serves as zero clearance between the petrol and the atmosphere, so it minimizes the evaporation.

Unlike service stations, here where I work, every truck that we load is temperature compensated, so that every litre is actually the exact amount.

ANOTHER REMINDER, IF THERE IS A FUEL TRUCK PUMPING INTO THE STORAGE TANKS, WHEN YOU STOP TO BUY, DO NOT FILL UP - most likely the petrol/diesel is being stirred up as the fuel is being delivered, and you might pick up some of the dirt that normally settles on the bottom.

Hope, this will help you get the maximum value for your money.

DO SHARE THESE TIPS WITH OTHERS! LET'S SHARE INFORMATION AND BENEFIT ALL, FOR THE BETTER OF MANKIND.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The density of petrol changes by 0.1% per degree Celsius, if anyone's interested in working out exactly how many pennies they'll save by getting up at dawn to fill their tank up.

lol. this might be an ok tip for places with overground storage tanks subject to changes in air temp, however the very fact that most tanks are underground means that the variance is like pretty much zero.


err, no they don't. when you consider that tanks are bloody great cylinders lying on their sides how hard do you think it would be to put a floating roof on that not only remained airtight but also changed size and shape as the fuel level went up and down? where does the roof go when the tank's full?

Sounds like the advice is very non-UK focused.  Probably good advice for South Africa.

they are fold out floating roofs, ya eejit...and invisible!..yeah invisible, foldout floating roofs.

Think about it..it makes perfect sense.

and your thinking behind that is what? does SA have different physical laws to the UK?

it's on the other side of the world FFS..of course it does! it has gravity up-side-down for one!

They might use vertical tanks.  These tanks might be above ground.  The temperature difference in SA first thing in the morning and at 'high noon' is probably significant.

Also, it mentions Durban in the OP.

yes the temp difference is greater which is why it might be important on overground tanks but not underground ones.

and unless they're complete morons they don't stand their tanks on end.

their toilets do flush the wrong way though

Up?

No, you flush the loo, then drop off the kids.  Strange place.

'FILL AND FLEE' 
Date : 03.06.08

Front of my local newspaper.
 
 
More drivers are filling up with petrol and driving off without paying as the cost of fuel soars.

Garages across Leicestershire have reported an increase in the number of "fill and flee" thieves.

Some petrol station bosses said they had gone from experiencing thefts twice a month to being hit two or three times a week.

Others told of people wearing hooded jackets walking on to forecourts and hastily filling jerry cans with petrol before running off.

Police believe some petrol thieves are using stolen number plates to allow them to speed off undetected.

The Leicester Mercury contacted 25 garages yesterday and more than half said they were dealing with more drive-off thefts than ever before.

While some thieves are stealing a few pounds worth of petrol in a can, some are fleeing with a full tank of fuel, which can be worth £60 or more.

Yunus Ughartear, manager at Euro-garages petrol station, in Croft, said: "We have CCTV that can read number plates, but a few of them park around the corner, come along with a hat that covers their face, fill up a jerry can and then run off.

"We used to have these thefts about twice a month, but now it's twice or three times a week.

"Our petrol is now 115.9p and I'm sure the rise in petrol prices is driving up the number of thefts. People just can't afford it any more."

Diesel now costs an average of £1.30 a litre in Leicestershire and the cost of filling an average tank in the county has increased by nearly £5 in less than two months.

Bratina Jha, of the MPK garage, St Peter's Road, Highfields, Leicester, said: "We used to have it two to three times a month, but now it's sometimes three a week.

"People are coming inside saying they have forgotten their wallet, but then they go off and don't come back.

"Sometimes people use stolen number plates and we have people taking cans of petrol away with them.

"We have to keep our eyes open. Otherwise, we would lose so much money."

Police believe thieves are stealing licence plates to use in the drive-offs.

Sergeant Gaynor Turner, of Harborough police, said: "They cover their plates with stolen ones so their own won't be spotted and recorded."

According to police, levels of drive-off theft - known as "bilking" - have remained stable, with 551 cases reported from January to April this year, compared with 575 over the same period the year before.

However Kevin Eastwood, executive director of the British Oil Security Syndicate - which oversees security on petrol forecourts - said the crime often went unreported by garage owners because it happened so often, and because garage staff might be too busy.

The organisation's figures show garages across the country lost £28.6 million to bilking last year - up 20 per cent on 2006.
 

lololololz

Must gullible blonde award goes to?

Another Rip Off Story

MERCURY MAILBOX: DIESEL SHOULD NOT COST MORE 
Date : 29.05.08 
 
I'm being ripped off. I'm 68 now. For much of my life, diesel fuel was much cheaper than petrol.

Many years ago, it became the same price as petrol. For the past several years, it has been 5p to 10p more expensive than petrol per litre. Last week, it jumped again.

In several stations, it was 15p per litre more expensive than petrol.

I understand completely the reasons for the vast increase in the price of fuel. I accept this and will adjust my travel costs accordingly.

But can somebody tell me why diesel fuel costs 10p to 15p more per litre to prepare for sale than petrol? All the vibes tell me that it doesn't.

My vibes tell me that the actual production costs of diesel are pretty much the same as petrol, and that the producers are pretty certain that drivers of diesel cars will pay up and say nothing, and commercial users will pass the costs on to their customers.

It's about time for this discrepancy in prices to be featured and challenged in the media.

They should both be about the same price. Why the difference?

E Page, Leicester. 

Not really a "Rip off story" that one is it, more a moan from a 68 year old who still relies on his "Vibes" to tell him something might be off. Any 68 YO that still uses the word "Vibes" can not be trusted anyways and should be ignored.

brilliant.

my suggestion would be to employ less idiots. surely after the first time someone hid their car, covered their face, filled up a can and ran off you'd stop turning the pump on.

Quote

For much of my life, diesel fuel was much cheaper than petrol.

Many years ago, it became the same price as petrol. For the past several years, it has been 5p to 10p more expensive than petrol per litre. Last week, it jumped again.

In several stations, it was 15p per litre more expensive than petrol.

I understand completely the reasons for the vast increase in the price of fuel. I accept this and will adjust my travel costs accordingly.

But can somebody tell me why diesel fuel costs 10p to 15p more per litre to prepare for sale than petrol? All the vibes tell me that it doesn't.

Why is Diesel more expensive than Petrol ?

http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

Dear Sir

The other day my husband had a revolutionary new idea. He added milk to my half filled petrol tank and was amazed to discover that my car still ran normally. Extending matters logically, he then began to add Petrol to his morning weetabix and was amazed to discover he felt unwell. When the fuel gauge came to empty he car-jacked a milk float at 4am and proceeded to fill my car up with gold top

Yesterday my husband died of fuel poisoning and now my car needs a new fuel tank. This is all Gordon Brown's fault and would never have happened if tax was cheaper.

Yours Faithfully

White van man's wife, Bridgnorth , Staffs   

 rotflmfao

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

by the way.. Diesel is more expensive because the demand in europe at the moment is more than supply.. FACT

E-fuel is an interesting development, worth a google and read up about it. Maybe that is the future?


Pasted from News article on E-fuel.

The world's first home ethanol system, which allows consumers to create their own ethanol and pump it directly into their cars, was unveiled today by the E-Fuel Corporation (www.efuel100.com). The revolutionary EFuel100 MicroFueler(TM) is the first product that allows anyone to reduce their dependency on oil, greatly diminish their carbon footprint and produce fuel for under $1.00 per gallon.

The MicroFueler is a leading edge product that allows consumers to create ethanol, simply and safely, with the readily available ingredients of sugar, yeast and water, and a standard household 110-220 AC power supply. Cars running on sugar-based ethanol produce 85% fewer carbon emissions than gasoline. Businesses, such as breweries, bars and restaurants can even use discarded alcohol beverages to create ethanol, for as little as $0.10 per gallon.

"E-Fuel will have a profound impact on the way we obtain and consume fuel, not unlike the paradigm shift that occurred in the 80s from the mainframe computer to the PC," said Tom Quinn, E-Fuel Founder and CEO. "Just as the PC brought desktop computing to the home, E-Fuel will bring the filling station to the home. Making local sugar-based ethanol fuel production possible, E-Fuel can solve the commercial ethanol transportation and pump station problems while providing consumers lower cost fuel due to micro efficiencies."

The portable MicroFueler unit houses the same consumer-friendly LCD touch screen interface and hose pumping system found at the corner gas station, so consumers can produce where they consume, eliminating energy waste and saving dollars. The retractable pumping hose extends up to 50 feet, eliminating the need to situate the unit directly beside the household vehicle.

With its breakthrough membrane technology, E-Fuel has made an industrial process possible on a much smaller scale, and without dangerous combustion processes. Additionally, the MicroFueler has achieved an 80% power improvement over commercial ethanol manufacturers, thus raising the bar of the renewable fuel standard for carbon reduction.

Can normal engines cope with that?

with no modification a normal engine can run with up to 10% ethanol. the 10% mix is already used in quite a few countries. several US states have made it a legal requirement that all petrol sold has the 10% mix and quite a few supermarket sites in the UK now include it as well.

whether the supermarket sites advertise the fact or not I'm unsure but I'd assume they have to as the power/volume ratio is lower for ethanol than petrol.

hmm...interesting stuff. I'll have a quick read through their website later...I just hope Mrs B will allow me to make ethanol at home as...well I have a history with being a bit clumsy..sometimes..very occasionally..and she's just outright dangerous and i would let her near explosive substances...but it'd be great fun :)

Vegtable oil FTW all diesel drivers stock up on veg oil and fill up on that, Its cheaper!!

Remember the Diesel engine was originally supposed to run on Peanut oil......FACT

Run your car with water. Have a look. www.drivewithwaterfuel.com/?hop=t0daysale

"This technology is proven. Only a small amount of water is needed as well, for example: one quart of water provides you with over 1800 gallons of HHO gas, which will last you for months as fuel, this will save you heaps of money at the same time as improving your vehicles fuel efficiency dramatically."

oh boy...this surely has to be a piss take.

Boldie, you make me laugh.

I was just looking at alternatives and came across that article, don't you think it works.

In my email from a friend today :-


REMINDER...

We are hitting 123.9 a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying 2.00 a ltr. Philip Hollsworth offered this good idea:

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the 'don't buy petrol on a certain day campaign that was going around last April or May! The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to hurt ourselves by refusing to buy petrol. It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them. BUT,whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really work.

Please read it and join in!

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the market place not sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of petrol come down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not purchasing their Petrol! And we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. Here's the idea:

For the rest of this year DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two biggest oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP.


If they are not selling any petrol, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact we need to reach literally millions of Esso and BP petrol buyers. It's really simple to do!!

Now, don't wimp out at this point... keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!

I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers! If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it goes one level further, you guessed it... ..

THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all.(and not buy at ESSO/BP) How long would all that take? If each of us sends this email out to ten more people within one day of receipt,
all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8days!!! Acting together we can make a difference . If this makes sense to you, please pass this message on.

PLEASE HOLD OUT UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE 69p a LITRE RANGE

It's easy to make this happen. Just forward this email, and buy your petrol at Shell, Asda,Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons Jet etc. i.e. boycott BP and Esso



 




 

"It's easy to make this happen. Just forward this email, and buy your petrol at Shell, Asda,Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons Jet etc. i.e. boycott BP and Esso"

Sainsbury's petrol is BP.

You really are a fountain of knowledge Kin !  ;tightend;

Raj i think you might be my favourite poster, i used to look forward to reading AndrewT's posts most but you have now taken that mantle.

I thank you.

LOL.. is it because there so bad.

lolz, I was just thinking exactly the same. when I saw Raj had posted on this thread again I couldn't wait to open it.

Erica is a sort imo.

impeccable logic. in fact I'm amazed that this hasn't already reached 300,000,000 people and that the global oil business hasn't already been crushed.

I think what they forgot to factor in is that most people aren't stupid enough to forward this shit to other people.

and as for the rest of the email, well we seem to have ignored that the supermarkets buy their petrol from the big fuel companies and the big companies all share depots so it all comes out of the same big tank anyway

Bikers stage fuel price protest
  5 June 2008 03:56pm
Scores of bikers have caused rush-hour disruption in a protest against rising fuel prices.

The protesters gathered at Birch services on the M62 north of Manchester before heading off in a slow-moving convoy.

The demo was organised by motorcycling groups, but they were joined by some taxi and lorry drivers.

Police stopped traffic on the motorway before the bikers left the service station, bound for Salford. The Highways Agency warned motorists to find alternative routes if possible.

It was the latest in a long line of fuel protests and came as some Labour backbenchers joined a chorus of voices warning Prime Minister Gordon Brown not to go ahead with a planned 2p increase in fuel duty this autumn.

Police estimate between 400 and 500 bikers took part in the protest.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) said a "small number" of lorry drivers failed to comply with the rules agreed with the organisers of today's protest.

The truckers were accused of breaking away from the protest group and driving at an unacceptably slow speed.

Assistant Chief Constable Ian Hopkins said: "The vast majority of those taking part have expressed their views in a way that was agreed with police, that was safe for motorists and that caused minimum disruption.

"We are disappointed that a small number of other demonstrators let them down and acted in an unacceptable way, causing added disruption to some drivers."

So has the price of petrol come down?

Went up a bit - all the extra demand from all these people doing their go-slow protests. It's very uneconomical.

in related good news though, Gordon Brown has resigned after a Scooter rider tried to deliver a letter to Number 10, and caused a stir when he wouldn't take his helmet off

you've gotta love it. the price of petrol is too high so we'll protest by using petrol.

I was thinking that the price of fruit was getting a bit ridic. today I decided to do something about it so I went to the shop and bought some bananas, that'll teach 'em

Did you do the old "This is what you can do with your Bananas!" as you shoved them up your arse in the middle of tesco's?

no, I had to act differently from normal otherwise how would they know it was a protest?

You raise a good point.

I found a good Website to find out where the cheapest petrol and diesel is, near to where you live. www.petrolprices.com

 :)up :)up :)up :)up :)up

no problem.

Cheers for that.

How good do I run?

My cheapest station is the nearest one to me (Shell) and the one I use :)

115p a litre near me - but that's for super unleaded.

I have to admit, things like fuel economy have never even entered my mind when buying a car in the past and our family car is currently a 4x4 which isnt exactly cheap to run it has to be said.

I will probably be changing it next year and I dread to think what price fuel will be by then. I think next year will be the first time I look to buy a car that is not only practical for us but also for sensible economical reasons.

Am I just getting old???

How many others would now consider a cars fuel economy when buying a new one, where they might not have before?

I had a very juicy RX8 till a year ago - 18-20mpg. Personal circumstances meant much more driving and so for the first time I then chose a car for economy - BMW diesel coupe - 50 mpg.

Hate it but glad I did it.Sure a lot of people will be thinking like you at the moment

I've been trying to reeducate myself with regard to a lheavy right foot, traffic light racing and the like still driving at a normal speed but not trying to accelerate as fast as possible.  It is certainly having a positive effect on my mpg and it is such a small thing to change that it's got to help save a penny or two.

I've decided to sell my car - not to save money on fuel (as I'm moving office and it's closer to home as well as me being able to car share so I'm driving it half the time I was previously), but to get something different.

However, the value of my car has fallen a fair bit as people aren't too keen on buying a car that only does 23mpg on super unleaded. 

If you're doing long distances, then a diesel does make sense - like in nirvana's case.  If you're only going to be doing frequent small journies then a diesel isn't really much of a help - especially if you're buying a new one as they tend to cost more to buy and you're not going to get much of an economic benefit in terms of the fuel bill.

Lots of people are looking at smaller cars now, and whilst there's still a market for luxury and sports cars, people who might have plumped for a slightly larger car are maybe considering downsizing.

Lift Sharing

With the cost of petrol continually rising and environmental issues at the forefront of a lot of people's minds, liftsharing is a great option, lessening the amount of driver only cars on the road and enabling two or more people to do one journey.

So what is the best way to find a lift? We have had a look at various web sites and by far the best is www.Liftshare.com set up by Ali Clabburn in 1998. The site now has over 130,000 registered members so finding someone to share your commute or a one-off journey with should take you just a few minutes.

The Benefits of Lift Sharing
Individuals, employers, communities and councils are being urged to encourage car sharing schemes. The numerous benefits include:


Reduced petrol costs
Reduced wear and tear on your vehicle
Reduced mileage and depreciation
Reduced space needed for car parking in workplaces
Reduced traffic congestion in and around offices and work places
A reduction in the high-level of pollution created by rush-hour commuters
A reduction in the cost of providing employee parking spaces
A reduction in morning congestion (kids being taken to school makes up to 15% of morning road traffic)
Statistics

If everyone who drives to work on their own caught a lift with someone else only once a week, commuting car journeys would be reduced by up to 25%.
 
Only a 3.6% increase in car occupancy would have the same impact on C02 levels and road congestion as doubling the number of people who use buses!

LOLOLOL

Looking forward to what your investigations unearth next Raj!

I'm just trying to help Tighty. LOL

[ X ] Thread keeps on giving

Tbh I'm still amazed at how cheaply fuel can be produced. Still great value imho.

I dont disagree m8, I dont really have an issue with the price and accept that it is inevitable that it will continue to go up. The point for me is that now a tank costs £70-80 a pop and it only lasts us 10 days or so.
It is quite an outgoing when you consider that we could halve it by buying a more "sensible" car.

Oh god, shoot me I am getting old !!!!!!!!

The only arguement possible for me is whether the tax aspect thats added to bring it towards its true cost is being used properly to ofset its environmental impact. Obviously it isn't, and its the fact that it just appears to be a cash cow for the government that people resent.

I don't think there are many people who could say they can't cut down on their driving to save themselves some money and bring their fuel costs back into line.

I know I am cutting back

I pondered hard playing DTD this weekend, as I had a rare free one. Once I had added £70 for a tank onto the buy in though, it didn't appeal as much.

I'm trying to make a tank last more than 7 days, and see how I get on!

I dont have a problem with the price, the thing that gets me though is different prices everywhere.

It's a disgrace that services charge upto 10p and probably more over the average cost. IMO there should be a set price everywhere and this would resolve alot of peoples grouches about prices...

MSAs are a captive market, local monopolies.

not a defence, I try very hard to avoid using them for food (also scandalously over-priced) let alone petrol.

IMO a local monpoly like this should have its pricing strucutres regulated for consumer protection. Possibly they are, off to check!

Rural garages surely have to charge more though?

People need to be smart, avoid those garages taking the piss. If virtually everyone does this it wont happen. Alas people are too thick, have pointless protests and dont play the big companies at their own game.

I don't think its necessarily being thick - its just a convenience thing.

If a service station is 5p a litre more it'll prob cost me an extra 2 quid to fill up. I'm fairly likely to pay that rather than spend ten minutes driving to a cheaper station. there is also the extra cost to hunt down the cheaper garage. It just depends how much you value your time and how you look at the costs you incur.