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Can England win this?  Eduardo was a big influence on Croatia's Euro 08 qualifying, does his absence make England favourites.  England look so disinterested I can't see them beating any half decent nations.  Champions League starts again soon also, which I think is one of the reasons England players perform so poorly in internationals if they bother to turn up at all.

Thoughts?

Eng are shit... And im not saying that because of being Welsh... Wales are not good, but may improve, Eng just seem to be going from bad to worse. I want to see them do well, why not, but watching them atm is a total waist of 90 minutes of my life..

C/L football for the win

fwiw they should be able to win, but a draw for me

If we get a point i will be a happy man.

2-0 us Cappello to be hailed hero.

Draw no bet..

Croatia @ 7/10

england ftw as long as he gets the selection right imo!

he must play walcott and joe cole and dump beckham and downing imo

is it tonight?

tomorrow

don't forget how weak we were at the back last time round. I'm throughly expectin a very boring draw as the result. Can't relie on a goal when u leave the best goalscorer out the squad.

Croatia will win this.

And im not just saying that because England are tez. Its because England are really really tez.

1-0 imo.

We'll batter them because that's how we roll.
We'll lose in the Ukraine and draw to Belarus.

not a chance surely? he'll set up tight to get the draw

I agree he shouldn't but he will.

Croatia are a half decent side but my gut is telling me you will get something out of this- I think i'm gonna shove a couple of quid on Beckham 1-0(assuming he starts) and Lampard 1-0. Gerrard is obviously a massive loss tho

if we had a proper manager like mourinho we would

losing gerrard is not a massive loss as long as lampard is fit imo

playing beckham is a loss

Which club do you support ITB ?

Losing gerrard is a massive loss to england he's generally the best performing midfield player(Joe cole is also up there with him but doesn't start every game/has been injured recently) england have got. Lampard on the other hand has generally been englands worst player in the whole team for at least the past 18months/2 years maybe more so i'm unsure were your confidence in lampard comes from

Worth laying England with all the patriotic punters around??

deffo

so what u laying??????

Are you saying that recently Lampard has been voted eng best player over last 5 years just i'm a 100% sure that this isn't the case

Just asked about your club as a lot of fans do take favour with a player that they support every week than a player who they dislike.

I ain't just blaming Lampard though although his contribution to the England team leaves me baffled to how he still gets picked but it certainly isn't just him.Why capello would pick Defoe ahead of a 90-95% fit Owen which i assure you also isn't rose tinted glasses as it is a fact that owen is englands most prolific goalscorer whereas although i highly rate defoe at club level it seems that he really struggles at int level.There at that many players you could pick who have actually looked a good player for england i'd probably only pick 2 in Joe Cole and Owen Hargreaves the rest for one reason or another have been a let down imo.

Er, england to win... 

Except Mourinho would be lucky to achieve half of what Capello has. Mourinho's very style of football comes from Capello's philosophy.

there is no way i would ever leave Lampard out of any England team.
if the rest of the team had Lampards skill and attitude england would be a lot better than they are now, last week England had Heskey up front doesent give me much confidence if thats all we have got for the world cup.
draw would be a great result for england
 

check the last 5 years who the fans have rated player of the year. how many times has lampard won it and how many gerrard has won?

let the FACTS speak for themselves

im not saying lampard is better than gerrard, but lampard is a more than adequate replacement for us not to miss gerrard imo.

goals to game ratio between the2 for england must be close.

fucked off with the people that get on lampards back. he is class but because he plays for chelsea and has the off day for england everyone gets on his back.

lampard and gerrard are years above all the other england midfield and a good manager could find a system to expliot this imo

hargreaves??????? wtf 2 good games iat the last world cup in a a desperate position and all of a sudden hes the best we got!

as for joe cole inconsistent and ce player so thats the reason he should play tomorrow, joe cole would love to be the alround player lampard is

Fan player polls aren't facts are they, they're just opinions.  That might just be a case of more Chelsea fans voting than Liverpool fans.

Gerrard and Lampard's records for England are pretty similar.  Both under perform for their country.

well done einstien what  price ???? ;)

imo Lampard & Gerrard for Eng, both are the best players out there.. I dont think they can play together, and that for me does not mean 1 of them should play and 1 not, because I think Eng are a better team with either 1 of them in, rather than both of them..

just my pennies worth.. fwiw I would prefer Gerrard never played for Eng again, but thats from a club point of view..

but they count for something!

the day more chelsea fans votye more than any other fans in any pole will be a first!

who will win the premier league

chelsea? chelsea fans vote

anyone else the rest of the world vote cos everyone hates chelsea

Just pointing out they're not facts mate is all.  I think Joe Cole is the most effective player England have.  Seems to be able to motivate himself for England and Chelsea. 

yeah but your a welsh sheepshagger lol ;D ;)

agree though jizz, that was my point the england team s not weakened with gerrard missing, nor if the other way round.

but a good manager would have found a way and imo mourinho would been that man, i think he had a vision and a plan hense he tried so hard to sign gerrard.

englands loss imo

and im pointing out lampard has been voted by the official england fans who follow them everywhere see every game the england player of the year more times in last 4 years than any other player.
but looks like in your opinion that fact aint worth a wank.

cole is a very gifted player but in lampards class as a complete footballer dont make me laugh lol

It's a fact they voted that way.  But how they compare is subjective isn't it as any comparison between players is.  The actual statistics though - games played - goals scored etc show there's very little between them.

As for Joe Cole, again just my opinion - wasn't trying to make you laugh or make you have a wank - I think he's been the player more likely to turn a game around and win games. I didn't say anything about him being a complete footballer or in Lampards class or noffin. Relax.

PMSL

Also i never ment that hargreaves was better than lampard just that he had played well when he has played recently (18months is recent for internationals imo) whereas Lampard hasn't in my opinion.Also you keep mentioning this voting thing i go to most newcastle games (all home and as many away as pos) and i ain't ever voted for a played of the year award and neither has any of the people who i know that regularly go to both home and away games.These poll's are normally not voted for by the true fans who go to the games, imo of course so i wouldn't choose to pay to much attention to those personally.I also don't have any problem with Lampard or Chelsea personally i couldn't care how they do or how he does.

im relaxed lol i agree cole can turn games but cant give over 90 what a lampard or gerrrard can

yeah but its a known fact that newcastle fans cant read or write so how the fuck they meant to fill in a voting form??? ;) ;D

Fair point  :)up

[ ] Most Englandfans bother voting for the player of the year
[ ] Winning the award in 2005 helps us in 2008
[ ] Gerrard plays well for England
[ ] Lampard plays well for England
[ ] Hargreaves can tackle

Bullard for England

England will probably turn over Croatia tonight for no good reason, we always raise our game against the good teams and struggle against the weak ones.

imo we should send the under 21s or a team made up of championship players for games like andorra and macedonia, and maybe let Joe Cole in the squad as he is the only one who has the right attitude in these matches, ie. lets take the piss against this shower of shite. Christ let Titus Bramble in those squads.

Id be happy with the draw, if we win the media will make out england dont have serious issues any more.

Lampard won the award in 2004 because of a couple of decent games at the Euro's.
These fans that voted for him are the same ones who booed him last season when he played for England.

There are only 4 players who seem to really care about playing for England at the moment, David James, Joe Cole, Emile Heskey and Michael Owen (and only 1 of them started on Saturday).

Although we have a different manager i dont see how things are any different from 2 years ago when we went to Zagreb and were comprehensivly beaten, and if anything Croatia are a better side now than they were then.  I would be very very surprised and very happy if we come away with a point tonight.

ps - it is a fu**ing disgrace that you cannot watch your national team play live, or watch highlights of the match unless you are willing to pay for it - yet another thing that the English FA need to sort out.

Eurovox FTW

It's amazing isn't it? At exactly the point where many people have totally lost interest in the preening prima donnas that make up most of the England team, the FA have a deal which bundles the games off to a minority satellite channel (one which is mostly subscribed to by Irish people or golf fans) for whom it is in their own interest that there are no terrestrial highlights.

This 'grab the money - fuck everything else' attitude from the FA helps show exactly what is wrong with the game.

Beckham cares, even if he is nearly as old and past it as tikay.

Saturdays team with Joe Cole and Beckham in for Downing and Walcott.

Play 4411 with 8 or 9 men behind the ball, hoofing it long into the channels for Defoe to aimlessly chase.  Then stick Heskey on with 20 minutes to go when Defoe is knackered.  Cue 70 yard punts straight up the middle, with noone supporting him.  Then take Beckham off, stick Walcott on for the last 3 minutes plus time added on.  Watch Walcott dazzle his way past a tiring defense, before falling over the ball.

Sorry I forgot Lampard blazing one over the bar from 30 yards in the 16th minute.

Have I missed any exciting moments ?

Yeah Beckham cares more than most, but i'm not sure he cares as much as he used to when he was captain.

You missed John Terry being branded a 'lionheart' when he chucks himself in front of a shot to block it - even though he was caught out of position in the first place which caused the opportunity.

Well enough proof that its the slack attitude of the moneybags players and not succesive managers, its the same old shit on the pitch and what on earth is happening when Heskey is up front??? we were all moaning about him in 2004! meant to be building for 2010.

Tonight for once the players should break a sweat and fight for a win, they owe it to the fans who live on buttons and pile loads of money into their pockets.

your first 5 points were credible then you spoilt it by putting bullard for england! another solid prem player who has not got enough class to play international footie imo

ive never seen many defenders caught out of position before in a football match

The players with enough class to play international football don't perform when playing for England.
I'd rather have 11 men with the heart of Jimmy Bullard.

Beasant
Le Saux
Hunter
Adams
Pearce
Wise
Jones
Batty
Bowyer
Withe
Fashanu


They'll put up a fight for .......well anything, really.

This will probably sound daft (but hey i'm good at it) but imo John Terry still hasn't proved he's good enough to play at international level.I've watched him in a few games where i've thought his defending has been really poor.This isn't another dig at a chelsea player and he is immense at club level but i don't think he should be captain as i don't think he should even be guarenteed his game he still needs to prove his quality for England as i say imo.

but would they win fuck all?  if thats your sole criteria for the team  then you might as well play 11 travelling fans

yawn!!! imo

ok my england team for tonight if i was manager would be

442 english teams have always played better when they play 442, even now the premiership teams are playing all sorts of systems i still feel our players play 442 best.

ok

gk david james (but surely we have a better younger goalkeeper out there)
lb ashley cole
rb glen johnston (though i feel this is a very weak position for england now days)
cb rio fedinand
cb john terry (CAPTAIN)

mid joe cole
mid frank lampard
mid gareth barry
mid theo walcott

f wayne rooney
f emile heskey ( we are so lacking quality forwards imo)

PML


+1  I know we have had chelsea v Liv debates, but Terry needs to prove his quality.. turn it in mondatoo hes a world quality defender, and does not need to prove anything.. We could do with a few more English players who are as good, and have as much heart for an Eng game.. Ok they dont sulk and cry liek Gazza did, its just another game for these players now, but there are some who DO put their soul into a game, and I would not question terry on being good enough or having the heart for it..

Nice to see you back btw Paul.. Football debates not been very good for a while..

You wouldn't put them out there to win.  If that's your sole criteria support Germany  ;)

I reckon finishing a match with 9 or more players on the park would go down as a bonus.

If he was saying the same about Rio Ferdinand your response wouldnt be yawn.

People need to take off their club blinkers when talking about the players playing for England - it is not only Chelsea fans, it is Liverpool, Man U and Arsenal fans.

IMO fwiw, Ashley Cole and Frank Lampard should not be in the England team - they are over-rated and would not make any of the top clubs national sides.
John Terry and Rio Ferdinand are also over-rated. Ferdinand is made to look very good by playing alongside Vidic, likewise Terry alongside Carvalho.  Given the choice of defensive partnerships over Terry and Ferdinand and Vidic and Carvalho, to me it is a no brainer and would never be Terry and Rio.  

As i support Palace (no chance of anyone playing for England), i can be honest in how i believe that players have performed, without bigging up my own clubs players, and i'm not the only one who can see that our players are not as good as we like to think.

I've decided this would be the best bet for England atm:                                                   


                                                  Robert Green

Micah Richards      Jonothan Woodgate            Rio Ferdinand        Ashley Cole

         
                   
                   Stephen Gerrard       Frank Lampard       Gareth Barry
                                                               

 
               Theo Walcott                                                   Joe Cole


                                                 Dean Ashton

Dean Ashton lone striker ... I LOL'd

thanks mate, a compliment...........i think!  ;D ;)

I reckon we'll do something like a 4321

Defense as above

Midfield : Barry Lampard Beckham

Forward midfield / whatever :  J Cole, Rooney

On his own : Heskey

This means we'll be able to swamp the midfield when we're defending ( which'll be most of the evening ) then it'll give our fullbacks a chance to get forward and put in quality crosses on the rare occaisions we attack.

Yeah, and  rotflmfao.

Cue a game where we get stuffed playing up the middle, can't work a way round their defense, so end up eventually, when all else has failed, ( after about 20 minutes ) punting long balls up to a stranded Heskey to nod on to their keeper.

You know in truth, we are weak in a lot of positions.

Goalkeepers ... none of international quality imo.

Defenders we can muster a good quality back 4.

Midfield ... again we seem to struggle here, we dont have anyone that gets stuck in and wins the ball.

Strikers ... out and out strikers, we are really struggling.

my response for ferdinand would also be yawn i think you'll find.

all 4 centre backs you named are very good players, all worthy internationals and all good enough. but only 2 of em are english so it must be terry and ferdinand.

carvalho is a great player in his own right and so is terry, likewise vidic and ferdinand.

as for ash cole and frank lampard not being worthy of their places i find this laughable tbh, tell me a better left back out there to replace cole? and other than stevie g another midfielder who has as much influence on a game than lampard?

i really dont want to get into a slanging match but im afraid your comments hardly inspire a good knowledge of football (being a palace fan may have something to do with it  ;) )

For me:



   
                                          David James

Micah Richards          John Terry            Rio Ferdinand            Ashley Cole

                            
Joe Cole             Stephen Gerrard       Frank Lampard           Gareth Barry
                                                               

                                             Wayne Rooney

                                              Dean Ashton

a number of those arent available tonight, i think the debate is about the squad available for selection tonight

Fat Frank and Gerrard should never be allowed to be on the pitch at the same time, it never works.

am i missing something?????? is gerrard available?

i put my team from the available squad and as shit as it is imo its the best we can muster

dont agree kev, i think the right manager will find a way, i hope capellos that man.

They have the same game - they play in the same part of the pitch and run into the same areas. The only way they can successfully play in the same team is if they take turns playing in a completely different way than they're used to.

You can only play one and, if fit, that should always be Gerrard - Lampard should be in the squad as Gerrard's understudy.

                                  David James

Micah Richards       Rio Ferdinand    John Terry      Ashley Cole

David Beckham      Frank Lampard  Gareth Barry    Joe Cole

                        Wayne Rooney    Jermaine Defoe

good players adapt to the right system, people said ballack and lampard wouldnt be able to play in the same team at chelsea i think they have proved that wrong.

agree gerrard should play ahead of lampard but i dont think that we should forget lampard is miles above any other midfielder available to england

Jesus, have you ever seen defoe play for england, he has had MORE than enough chances to impress... he aint got it, never has had it, never will have it.

i dont want a slanging match either - it is all about opinions, i have mine, you have yours.  you only have to look at the different teams that people pick to understand that everyone sees things differently.

I do however have a very good knowledge of football, having played the game at a decent level for a number of years, and also obtained coaching badges and watched a lot of matches (as my missus would testify!!!)

IN MY OPINION Ashley Cole is not a good player - i believe he is picked on his reputation for making decent forward runs that he USED to produce at Arsenal and is lucky that there are no other decent English left backs.  If he had been around in the years of Kenny Sansom and Stuart Pearce then i dont think he would have made it to double figures in england caps if any at all.
Lampard is a good player for Chelsea, mainly because of the players that he has around him (makelele and Essien the last couple of years), whereas for England he just doesnt do it.  Gerrard on the other hand, doesnt have the players around him at Liverpool, but can single handedly win matches for them, as he has done for England in the past.

My point about Terry and Ferdinand is that it is the other centre half that makes them look so good.  They probably are the best two centre halves that we have, but unfortunately they are not world class.

If you asked somebody who follows world football closely (not just someone who watches a major tournament on tv every 2 years and the odd champions league game to name their best X1, i dont think many English players would make that team.............................but again it all comes down to opinions.

shows the shit we are in up front when defoe and heskey are the best we can muster, we need another michael owen 98 bursting onto the scenes!

he can hammer 'em away, he proves this in the premiership and also in games like vs Trinidad & Tob.

I LOL'd

[ ] That world football highly rated team from Trinidad & Tobago

ITB would have netted 4 against them !

Can't believe crouch with his England record does not get a look in.

exactly opinions,

with regards coaching badges they arent worth a wank imo, i coached youth and mens football successfully for many years and every time i was asked to start taking my badges i declined until i had to or give up.

coaching is all about ideas, individual ideas. why should we all be taught by the fa how to coach a certain way? i have my own ideas on how my teams shud line up and play i shouldnt have my ideas shackled by the f a wanting you to do it a certain way.

badges are just an f a money making exercise imo lets be honest its hardly produced any top class managers!

And that backs up bellys post "shows the shit we are in up front when defoe and heskey are the best we can muster" and when Crouch is next in line behind those 2 you know we are in trouble !


You dont get many chances at International level, you need a striker/strkers that can convert chances ... a 1 in 7 strike rate aint gonna get you anywhere

with my eyes shut kev lol with you obviously supplying the sublime through ball lol

which other player scored against T&T ?

defoe is 1 of the best available, also crouch is a great choice but has dropped in performance recently - hence why liverpool sold up.

Crouch and rooney would be 1st choice if crouch was on form, although he isnt.

Defoe beats heskey anyday - he can run for a starter.

rooney and defoe up front for me tonight.

rooney is a must   he turns in quality performances every england game doesnt he

Crouch:

International Caps    28 
International Goals   14

I have no idea why he was dropped, him and owen up front would have been a handful.

agree here i would have him ahead of both heskey and defoe on his international record alone.

but as kev says we are still in the shit up front

Doesn't matter if he's better than any other midfielder - if he's second best for his position he shouldn't play, unless he can prove he's better than another player in that position. Lampard is an attacking central midfielder - good for him. But that position is filled by Gerrard - what else can Frank do?

When Peter Shilton was England keeper, I don't remember Ray Clemence getting too many games in midfield because he was too good to leave out.

indeed we are - is crouch even available tonight?

end of our discusion - we both have our own opinions and will leave it at that.

                                                 jamesd

        richards              rio                          terry              acole



        gerrard               rooney               barry              j cole


                                 owen             crouch

  Yes goals are goals, but you cant help think about the teams hes scored against...

  Hungary
  Jamaica
  Jamaica
  Jamaica
  Trinidad and Tobago
  Greece
  Greece
  Andorra
  Andorra
  FYR Macedonia
  Estonia
  Austria
  Croatia

I cant agree with having a 38 year old goalkeeper in the Squad, when we're looking at 2010 and 2012 tournaments and beyond.

Even tho he is the best atm, others need bedding in for these tournaments.

At leat Gareth Bale jus bottled a penalty for Wales away at Russia.

if you read again i think find i said gerrard should be in ahead of lampard. but people are debateing whether lampard should play now gerrards out imo thats a nothing debate.
but i also feel that under a manager with the right ideas  lampard and gerrard can adapt to play together.

your comparison of the lampard/gerrard situation to the shilton/clemence situation is laughable imo and not worth commenting or debating, if you cant see why im sorry im not wasteing my typing finger  ;)

You can only score against the team you play against :)  I aint a huge fan of crouch tbh just i think hes been treated badly. Esp since we struggling to score.

Crouch wasn't included in the squad.  Bonkers if you ask me.  

David James is playing well - and if he stands out in the Premiership as a quality keeper (which he has been doing), then that's international standard imo.

All the talk of individual personnel is a bit of a smokescreen really.  England has the players to put out two decent sides (not world beaters, but decent).  The way we played against Andorra was woeful, and a team made up of players from the Championship would have won by more than 2-0.

Tonight we're playing a decent side.  But even with the players we're missing, we should have more than enough to beat them.  We'll have to play a lot better than we did at the weekend though.

That makes your signature completely meaningless then.

;)

Massive point IMO.

Lampard shouldn't be in an England shirt, either. Personally don't think he gives his all when playing for his country. You can't play him and Gerrard and I am not picking Lampard.

I don't follow any Prem teams so happy to argue with any Chelsea nuts that can't separate the blindingly obvious from their club loyalty.

Reading the papers and listening to the interviews this week it all seems doom and gloom. I think they need to be more positive and create a real team spirit, not come out with excuses about playing at home is hard coz of the crowds.


Hold on didn't Lampard win England player of the year recently?

Croatia are at home.  Croatia beat us twice in the qualifying stages of the Euros.  Croatia qualified for the Euros, we didnt.  Croatia are ranked 5 in the world. England are ranked 15.  I dont see any reason why we should have enough to beat them.

i think the performance against andorra was not as bad as made out. the days of beating "weaker" nations by 5 or 6 goals are long gone. these teams have wised up and get everyone behind the ball at every oppurtunity so are harder to break down.

those who play football will tell you the hardest teams to beat are those who dont want to play, that just want to survive. a bit like a rock in poker happy to blind to the money lol

I'm not saying we will.  I'm saying with the players we have available we should be able to beat them.

Did he win it when we were being competitively challenged during a major tournament?

But we have had these players available for the last 2 years and didnt look like doing it then.  I really hope i am wrong, but i struggle to see us getting anything tonight.

i am a chelsea nut and i think its me your getting at.

all i say is read my posts regards gerrard and lampard properly then throw your accusations of club loyalty.
please dont insult my intelligence i have prob forgotten more about football than you know lol.

as for argueing im afraid we dont do that here on blonde we do debateing  ;D ;)

I think there are shouts for plenty others in the England team to be dropped before Fat frank.

who

No, Turny, just in general.

I have to argue this sort of thing with Billy a lot, too. I agree that with Gerrard out we should play Lampard but I wouldn't play Lampard if I had the choice of the full squad.


Who was the keeper they played v. Croatia last time and he blundered ( I think it was the Croatia game )

Carson, I believe? I'd be more inclined to play him over James. I think he's good, but probably felt the pressure that night.

Obviously if Gerrard is out then I play Lampard ldo.

However, I can't see a situation where Gerrard+Lampard is going to be better than Gerrard+Someone Else. An England manager shouldn't try and adapt Gerrard and Lampard's game so they can play together - he should just pick different players who are naturally better at what he wants to do. We're not Armenia - there is a decent player pool to pick from. A club manager can, in time, change a player's game (like Wenger did with Henry) but an international manager has to work with what he gets from the clubs.


Yes, it was a joke, but underlined with a serious point. No one would even consider playing a keeper out of position, but would do the same for an outfield player. My point is that, in an international team, trying to turn Lampard into something he's not is just as silly.

Ive said it before and i'll say it again, a fit and playing Ben Foster will be England No. 1 in 12+ months time...

I'm agreeing with you.  I don't know why England don't perform better than they do, because with the players available in the team - we should do better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, your signature means nothing.

;)

i think you will find im the only "chelsea nut" posting on this thread at this time so natura that i assume you are throwing your accusations at me.


but i think i make the same point as you regards gerrards selection in front of lampard so i cant really see your point.

Germany won 6-0 at the weekend.

 :'(

FYP  ;D ;)

I am sure there are many chelsea fans and I read a post with someone stating people ought to stop defending their teams in international football debates. So if we're going to go on assumptions, that was the thinking behind mine.

Your decision to go on the defensive, I am afraid. And really. If I wanted to insult your intelligence, I wouldn't do it over Frank Lampard lol.

My point is that I wouldn't play Lampard. He isn't going to learn to play with Gerrard. How can he? Not like Scolari will encourage it. We need to look for a substitute to play with Gerrard because Gerrard is the better of the two and has the passion.

None of the players these days have the passion. Pearce, Gascoigne and Shearer actually loved playing for their country. We've so few players like that now that's got to be more ruthless. If they don't want to perform, just don't play them. We've got plenty of players dying for the chance.

my point is lampard would be better in other positions than others but again imo.
lampard is not a one dimentional player he does more than hes sometimes given credit for and il be suprised if any other player covers more ground than him tonight

its rarer nowdays thats all im saying. happy now mr smartarse? ;)

It would have been interesting had Gerrard signed for Chelsea a few years ago whether Mourinho would have managed to get them to play together.

come on do u really think anyone would go out, pull on an england shirt then think "fuck it im not giving 100% today"?

i doubt that considerably tbh.

players can rule themselves out of international duty if they really feel that way

because they dont fall about crying,clutch the badge at every oppurtunity or pump the air all the time doesnt mean they arent passionate.

very interesting imo. he obviously see a way they could and hes a far better judge than anyone whose posted on this thread!

Talking about extremes is not a good way to put forward an argument. Obviously, no, they are not thinking "I am going to play shit tonight. I don't care."

At the same time, I do believe they're going out with the mentality that they're not in danger of losing their team place along with the lack of drive and determination other countries have due to their prestigiously high wages and greater focus on the Premiership. A point not helped by Fergie and co.

Give me an XI of top flight players not considered good enough for England and the current England XI and you can bet your life they'd have the game of their life because the burning desire to prove oneself and to win will ignite in the lesser able team and they'll take the game to the First XI. That sort of mentality is what is missing.

Something that no one has mentioned is the Gerrard operation fiasco. Surely this is something that could have waited until Liverpool were playing Hull or Stoke. It would be interesting to know if Gerrard had any say on the timing of the operation. Croatia away is England's most important game for the next 12 months ffs.

I would imagine Capello is pretty frustrated about the situation,something he will have to get used to i'm afraid.

i said before mate we dont argue on here we debate  ;D

im out of here anyway, good luck england il miss the first half as im playing footie but im sure il be around after for the "lets blame fat frank" debate

Of course it was timed to coincide with the internationals.    The same way as man u players have consistently been 'injured' just before an international, only to miraculously recover after the international break.

Gerrard is one of the best midfielders in the world.  Why would Liverpool (the club that pays his wages) want him to miss Liverpool matches to be fit for England games - and the risk that he might pick up another (or the same) injury and miss games after the internationals?  I'm not saying it's the right attitude or the wrong one - it's just the reality.

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ar·gu·ment    Audio Help   /ˈɑrgyəmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahr-gyuh-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

I've often thought that the senior team should play the U-21s in a match at Wembley for exactly this reason.

I wasn't having a dig at Liverpool mate,i realise other clubs do the same,but Gerrard is more important to England than say Hargreaves.

I know it's Liverpool that pay his wages,but Benitez is bound to rest Gerrard at some stage. Couldn't Gerrard have said i want to play against Croatia? Maybe i'm being naive,but when the players are accused of not caring enough about England it just makes me wonder.

I think the Clubs are certainly one part of the larger problem.

I would imagine if the club tell Gerrard to go in for an operation, he has a contractual obligation to do it, irrespective of England loyalties.

Arsenal fans??  Don't bring us into this squabble.  We have nothing to do with England.  ;)

we can play with lampard and gerrard in a mid 5 with hargreaves or barry anchor. still trouble upfront though. basic football pick the players for the system or the system for the players

Beckham not playing, Walcott is!

heres the starting 11

 James, Brown, Terry, Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Walcott, Lampard, Barry, Joe Cole, Rooney, Heskey.


Subs: Robinson, Johnson, Beckham, Downing, Defoe, Upson, Jenas.

Seriously Emile Heskey .. HOW ?

I fancy England tonight, not really sure why.

Walcott is an absolute must imo, he was the only 1 that gave any attacking options and flair other day.

Cole And Heskey start too, Heskey adds a bit of strength and holds the ball up, better option than Defoe for England tonight.

3-1 England.

We all WANT england to win the fkin lot ... I THINK we can get a point tonight, I am NOT expecting a good flowing game of football ... I havent seen England play a decent game for years.

All 3 points would be nice and i hope we can get them ... but I fear a nervy point is the best we will get .

cheeky web link

http://it.justin.tv/spok88

it aint John Motson commentating, but it will do. :D

http://www.iraqgoals.com/en/?page_id=5

setanta stream

better link, nice one

np

Rooney is tez.

+1

The thing with Gerrard is that he's been playing since the start of the season with the injury.  This would probably explain his indifferent form.  The operation could have been done earlier, but that wasn't on the club's agenda.

As for Gerrard not caring enough about England, it's probably true to a degree.  When he's on the pitch, he'll play his heart out (although I can remember quite a few games for England when he's been gash - not the only one mind), but his 'loyalty' seems to be for his club first.


Heskey should have been given a penalty there.

Not broadcasting?

;whistle;

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

ffs,i was gona do Walcott anytime Goalscorer but didnt bother. fml.

nvm. gg

GET IN !!!   lets not fkin sit back and let them back in it

+1

GFY Bilic you gobshyte.......

not sure mate, im now watchin on sopcast 6001

Come on Croatia get the finger out...

link please

this is working v. well

http://www.iraqgoals.com/en/?page_id=5

 

Walcott has been assaulted.

1st of 3 yellow cards for that croat fool ! (got booked 3 times in 1 match last time....)

yep, spot on here ... superb picture... Only downside is Chris Waddles punditry , fkin awful.

Lol

Walcott is a lightweight.

and now croatia have a daft free kick which rooney given away...

got it ty ty

So blinkered.

That's the Setanta commentary. 

It could be worse.  It could be Pleat.

Definitely. Still a lightweight though ;)

Chris Twaddle and Pleat,now that would be truly awfull

Gerrard said he's been playing through the pain for a few weeks now and his painkiller intake was going up and up to the point where he couldn't train with the pain any more.

Don't believe the media/taboid BS.

well we will all take that at half time :)

half time - 1-0 good enough for now...... but croatia coming back at end.


cmon england!!!!!!!!  

He should have had the op pre-season.

2-0 to the mighty Scots.

Croatia are passing it about well but haven't created many chances.

Tactically Capello has got it spot on. Good stuff from Heskey keeping it up, Barry doing well breaking it up and Walcott and Cole coming into it more and more. Perfect away tactics.

Not with a 7 point start he souldn't ;)

impressive first half

early goal second half.. esp if its for Heskey.. to wind em all up ;)

that'd be a good bet - probs 27-1 lol

Joe Cole assaulted now.

You can have that one. Nasty.

Croatia are trying to win by two knock-downs and a submission.

quality!!

Hope we smash the dirty ******* now

sweet goal

+1

GOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL

Good though.

2-0 :)

You can have that one.

3-0 lol

easy easy easy!!!

Bout time Rooney scored!

Ship it - I have my entire Betfair roll on England to win.

broadcast stopped at55mins, tell me what happened.

"Are you Scotland in disguise"

rotflmfao

Croatia's defence = lol

can anyone translate what chiprich is trying to say to me

(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/kinboshi/divers.png)

http://livefutbolpc.blogspot.com/

that's good, I see what you've done. you've taken photos of 2 people who don't look alike and switched their names.

have you found anywhere to make us hats in the next 10 days? I forgot

They aren't meant to look alike.

::)

lolool.

obv sitting/laying on sofa and cba to move to type.

So just wrote using mouse ldo. Lazzzzzzzzzzzzy

Swizterland 1 - 2 Luxembourg

lolololol

I know. have you got any more pics of people who look different?

and what about the hats? don't dodge the subject

LOL the Croats are going home already

So has our defence.

[ ] James did well there

[  ] Robinson would have done better

I see what you did there wp

[ ] Terry got kicked in the head there

Hat-trick!!

Get in.

I hope I'm not being premature, but England are definitely going to win the World Cup.

+3

Premature exclamations.

(http://img107.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/09/10/danielphillips-fkyetddo.bmp)(http://img110.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/09/10/softtoy-4btk5cbw2.bmp)

Good work.

[  ] my read on the game was wrong
[  ] score prediction was right
[  ] put a solid couple of bullys on it
[X] england finally remember how to score and win games

kinboshi         nico kovac`s teddy

hahahahahahahahaha A+.

For those with digital telly, but no Setanta subscription, you can watch the highlights on Setanta Sports 1 at 11:30 tonight, free of charge.

The programme starts at 10:45, but it's showing some Micky Mouse match first before the England game.

First team EVER to beat Croatia (since the last team that beat them).

About bloody time England, Hope it continues

Would i be right in assuming that the mickey mouse team you are referring to is Scotland? If so thank you for the tip.

Back to being the best team in the world again until the next rude awakening? I can't wait for all the speculation tonight on who England will be playing in the 2010 World Cup Final.

 ;scarymoment;

11:30 it is then.

I didn't say they were a Micky Mouse team... but yes you're right ;D

brilliant team performance by England,long time since i have seen a England team play the ball round with so much confidence, shame about the Lampard goal being dissallowed,it was world class.all the team played well but Rooney and Walcott where outstanding.

Good performance all round. I thought everyone had a good game tbh except calamity James. The balance was there between the full backs attacking and defending. It was bang on in the middle of midfield and when Rooney was further forward in the second half the support to Heskey was excellent. The choice of Heskey was good too vs that type of centre half away from home. The gameplan to play down the right was on the money too. Especially with Krancjar out.

England win and Scotland win. Great night.
England play better against decent teams just got to get through the grinds of all out defence teams.
Hope Scotland and England both get to the World Cup. We all know deep down that we like each other.

"It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth, the most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English, I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. We can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in"

Didn't watch it, didn't read thread but did have a monkey on Croatia @ 2.58 FML

Well i will have to say that i was very pleasantly surprised by both the scoreline and performance last night, couldnt see that outcome in a million years.

We have now put ourselves in a superb position to qualify and need to build on it by winning our home matches.

It's great to read through the thread the morning after.

People start off, either hopefully optimistic, but half expecting the worst, or expectanctly negative, hoping for a miracle.

Then as the game progressed and the miracle happened, the joy seeps through the ether.

For me I was working late last night, so I only got to hear the first half in between deliveries, but I managed to park up in a layby for most of the 2nd half.  I think I interupted two couples' dogging for the night, but tough shite - this was more important.

Having seen a bit of the highlights as well ;

• it's a travesty this can't be shown terrestrially
• it's got to be the best England performance this century
• Capello might even know what he's doing
• Walcott IS NOT A WINGER, please, please remember that

1. Nit
2. I think beating Germany 5-1 away is still better.
3. There was never a question of this, hes managed at the very top level for years and years.
4. Walcotts best position is undeniably forward, not striker, but forward (just behind striker) as shown last night and at some points when playing at Southampton. Having said this, i disagree with you because he is still an effective player on the wing and can play in this position imo. He was awesome when i saw him live on the wing, beating players easily on the right with his pace, and coming inside passing balls into the box. Maybe just needs to work on his crossing.

Chip +3 :)

great result - bit easier than last qualifiers

He got the score wrong the idiot.  Shows he knows nothing about football.

I know Capello's good. But tbh I was one that didn't want him as England manager.  Not speaking the language.  Effective footy over good footy and all that.  This is just my way of opening up the possibility of the potential for the beginning of the idea, that maybe one day, in the distant far off future, if he keeps this up, I might have to admit that I was wrong

The Germany game was obviously brilliant, but from memory, although the result was stunning, and in itself a better result, and our finishing was top draw, the actual football we played wasn't particularly good. I think from the little I've seen, and from everything I've heard, that our passing was good last night, our ball retention was good.  The players gelled together well, and played as a unit.  So, forgetting the goals and the final result, it was the best football we've played, maybe since the mid 90s

I've followed Arsenal since the late 60's.  When Graham first joined in the 80's he had some brilliant kids coming through.  But because it didn't suit his style of play, and because he didn't have teh balls to change his views to suit the kids, he played his part in making sure that players like Merson and Campbell failed to reach their potential, by playing them out of position.  With better tuition, I honestly believe that those two ( and others ) could have gone on to be England regulars, maybe even genuine world class players.

Over the last year or so I'm beginning to see signs that Wenger wants Walcott to be a regular in the first team, coz it's good pr ( young Englishman in the team ), but he's not in a position to play him in his best position, because he wants a ready made player he can slot in there.  So, because he can justify sticking Walcott on the wing, he can kill two birds with one stone.

Being an Arsenal fan, I think Wenger is the greatest trainer/manager this country has ever seen.  I can argue that against any other manager in the premiership.  BUT, in this one thing, I think he's potentially wrong.  And my fear is that he might well destroy a potentially brilliant career if he's wrong, and I'm right.

Tearing holland apart at Wembley in the Euros is the best ever England game I have seen.

I agree.  We were quality in that game, and they were a top side.  I remember tearing them apart and wondering how many we were going to score.  The last goal with Shearer at the right hand side at the edge of the area calling for the ball before dispatching it into the top corner.

Wonder if boldie remembers it as fondly?

He probably remembers them stopping us qualifying for USA 94 when Ronald Koeman scored (even though he shouldn't have been on the pitch) with fonder memories.

LOL i can remember watching that Koeman game ... it was a free kick i think.  Brian Moore commentating ... "hes gonna chip one, hes gonna chip one" or something like that.

Last night Rooney played the roll of Sheringham and Theo took on the Shearer role.

Theo missed a trick with the one-handed salute celebration!

massive lack of seething in this thread....shocked

I know, wasn't happy when we made it 4-1 tbh. Sighhh.

Was that the one where Gazza scored and did the famous guzzling celebration ?

Or was that against Scotland ?

That was against Scotland.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0NT6aUwN8c

i see your gazza and raise you

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LtC1pByt-os


world champions ? pah.

Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

I got bored with all the Star Wars crap, and couldn't be bothered with the footy.

I'm sure it never happened anyway, and is just a Hollywood mock up.

 ;angel;

Watching that makes me desperately want a Scotland England game. I hope we both finish second in our groups and play in the play-offs. Would be amaaaaazin.

Great result and good performance by most James' was shocking and it's worrying how poor we are for keepers apart from that though wp gg nh