blonde poker forum

Heard something about this book again the other day on the Radio.

The case has always fascinated me as it seemed obvious imo that it had something to do with the parents.

Something clicked in my head that the banned book must be somewhere on the internet, and of course 2 minutes later I had an abreviated version (I believe) translated in to English. 5 hours later and it possibly wasnt the most productive day at work but I found it an amazing read.

Wondered if anyone else had read it.

Happy to post the link on here but as its a little controversial I will wait for a mod to okay if anyones requests it.

You really think the parents had something to do way this?

Can i ask why?

The way they acted on the telly, and the whole story just made me think they must have had something to do with it.

The book in no uncertain terms says that she died in the apartment, and there was a credible witness who saw Gerry McCann carrying the body away after the reported her missing.

I wondered if anyone could discredit the book or the officers story. The way it reads he sounds like most honest genuine bloke, but then off course it does.

I dont understand how the top Portugese police in charge could be so sure its them and then nothing done about it.

I must be missing something.

Can you PM me the link pls, if it cannot be posted here.  I'd like to read that. Cheers Stu.

Just google something like "truth of the lie english translation" or similar

You never know your luck, there might be a link at the top of the list......

Done, be interested to know what you think.

i was thought it was them!!!   was they something about blood been found in a hire car they had??  can you pm me the link mate thanks

Mods please feel free to remove if not deemed appropriate, but I cant be bothered PM'ing everyone.

http://truthofthelie.com/the-book/chapter-1/

This is going to be a long thread, I find it hard to believe they had anything to do with it, their own daughter ffs..........

waaay to lazy too do that, by the time i've made a cuppa Stuewy PM'd the link innit  ;D

The general theme is that they enjoyed going out without the kids at night.
They came back one night and found her dead in the apartment and then attempted to cover up how negligent they had been.

Then aside to that there is a very interesting part about one of the friends of the family.

It's appaling to think anyone can do anything to any child/adult/human, but it happens.  Something about this case just doesn't sit right ... I can't put my finger on what it is exactly but it's there nonetheless

+1

all the facts, perhaps?

As if that matters to a murderer.

You think if Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, Jeff Dahmer etc. had had kids they couldn't have done them any harm?

I'm not trying to compare the McCann parents to these mercilous serial killers btw just saying that the "she was their own daughter" thing doesn't mean anything.

If they're killers they're killers and their victims could be anyone.

Thats what I'm after, any facts on the other side of this.

Obviously the guy could just be out to make money, but the statements in his book are very clear cut and could be easily disproved if they were lies.

Yes I think it does matter. You honesty think they deliberately set out to murder their own daughter? I could as an outside option I could accept Stu's option, but there is no chance it was deliberate. I probs won't post on here again, seems a bit wrong..............

I have no opinions on the case whatsoever and won't post anything saying that I think they did or didn't do it.

All I was saying was that if they are killers the fact that she's their daughter means nothing.

In every case one would initially assume that the parents weren't the killers. It's natural to assume that because it isn't common.

However, if they are killers then there's no reason they wouldn't set out to kill their daughter. A victim is a victim to a killer.

Saying that you find it hard to believe they had anything to do with it based purely on the fact she was their daughter is a little naive in my opinion. There need to be facts associated with the case to remove the parents from suspicion.

Once again I know absolutely nothing about this case so I am not forming any opinion on who did it. I'm just saying that nobody, even the parents can be ruled out until there is evidence to definitively rule them out.

Thanks to the justice system everyone is (quite rightly) innocent until proven guilty but unless there is evidence to prove innocence then there is always a chance that they are guilty.

Being from Leicester the case was obviously massive news here. I also worked with a friend of the mother.

The one thing I've always thought is, if they are innocent, must make their plight so much worse knowing people think they did it and having to live probably never knowing what happened to their daughter

The flip side of that is if they are guilty they must feel much better knowing that people can't prove that they did it and they get to live being the only ones who will ever know what happened.

Again I must stress that I'm not saying I think they're guilty or innocent. I genuinely have no opinion either way on this and I'm not copping out I just have no idea.

This is probably one of those cases where the only people/person who will ever truly know what happened is whoever did it.

If they were guilty, and as you say nobody could prove it, I reckon the last 3 years hunting the globe, private investigators, international campaigns, web-sites, court cases etc...would be a thoroughly ridiculous charade. Even crazy child-killlers would have called a halt to the sham by now. Probably desperate innocent parents with an ounce of hope would be the only people still looking. Proof enough imo.

Or people desperate to stay out of jail/go down in history as monsters etc etc.

I don't have an opinion on what happened but it seems to me that if they were involved then you can't really fathom out their motives, their emotions, how they would act.

I have an opinion on what happened. I reckon their daughter got snatched on holiday. The theory that during a weeks self-catering in Portugal the parents snuffed out one of their kids, covered it up, and then spent the next 3 years searching the world is a lunatic theory. If somebody came up to you in the bookies and tipped a 200/1 shot you'd think that person was feckin mad, yet the monster parent lunatic theory is like a 20,000,000/1 shot and people are like hmmm...

One of the best ways to find out about killers/people who had something to do with the murder is from when behavioural specialists study how they act under the spotlight. These two have both been under plenty and nothing has been said.

I'll read it just to see what the guy has to say, but it makes me a little uneasy that someone has written a book pointing things in the direction of two parents who have just lost their daughter.

Can have a pound at 20mill/1 on the lunatic theory plz?

20,000,000/1 you say.

As far as I know there's only been one such incident in this country of 60,000,000 population in the last 3 years.

We must be about due one.

I'll have a pound as well please.

Can't be arsed to read it, but is this book saying they murdered her, or that they went out and effectively her death was caused by their neglect and they've tried to cover it up?

Slightly different things really, one's premeditated (i.e. murder) and the other is manslaughter (they didn't go out with the intention of killing anyone).

Whilst I have not read the book it must be said that the arguments that the (a) parents killed her or (b) dumped the body to cover up neglect are both ridiculous.

(a)
1 - The parents hardly appear to be Fred and Rose West
2 - If this is the case and the detective has sufficient evidence to write the book how come the parents have not been charged.

(b)
1 - In the event of accidental death, surely a better option would have been to say nothing until morning and then claim it must have happened while you were sleeping.
2 - surely having your daughter supposedly kidnapped and presumed murdered whilst you have dinner is just as bad as her accidentally dying whilst you were having dinner.

As for the claim that "there was a credible witness who saw Gerry McCann carrying the body away after the reported her missing." hhmm I think you might hide the body before reporting her missing.

Those people who want a £1 bet on the lunatic parent theory are like those old women who turn up in Hills on Grand National Day wanting 50p e/w on Charlie's Dream at 500/1 because they once knew somebody called Charlie.

I blame scummy Karen Matthews for all this.

do you know which percentage of unlawful killings are carried out by someone known to the victim ?

Ever had a go on the lottery Mantis?

Still I suppose that's only 14,000,000 to 1 so it's a lot different.

Stick to PHA mate. At least you have a slim chance of putting together a sensible argument over there.

Sigh

I was looking for some constructive discussion over the content of the book.
I realise I stated that I always thought they had something to hide, but im not overly interested in peoples opinions that because they seem like nice people they cant have done it.

I cant be bothered to find it but i think nearly 90% of cases like this involve someone related or close to the family, so anyone saying that is ludicrous is kidding themselves.

I think thats the point of the book, they didnt trust the McCanns, none of the Portugese GNR. They knew that she died in that apartment but they dont know exactly what happened.

I havent read the book/link, but hope too, I have a morbid interest in things like this, find them fascinating...

Im sure people who met the lovely Fred & Rose all thought 'Shit me, murderin mofo's ldo'

I dont think you would be thinking to well if you found your daughter dead after leaving her alone one night. I think covering up your negligence might pop into your head.

It only takes one lie to start the whole thing off doesnt it? Once that one thing has been said, how could they ever go back on it?

yep very high.

Mantis your posts on this thread are lunacy.
If you honestly live in a world where thats a 20,000,000/1 shot no wonder you struggle on the PHA threads.

According to friedman et al (via wikipedia) 61% of murdered American children under 5 are killed by a parent

Have a read, then we can discuss why they havent been charged?

no body?

lol & FYP

a few things that strike me as odd from the case.

im a kidnapper, "oh yes, a popular tourist destination" yes we'll get the 4 year old and leave the younger and less recognisable (in years to come) twins alone
if the mccans did accidentaly kill maddie, i expect it to be that they wanted to go out she was making loads of noise and they shook her to death by accident.
Or that they didnt want to be held negligable after leaving the small children in an appartment while they went out cavorting.
If they were involved then going on a campign for 3 years is exactly what they would do to avoid the suspision which is bound to arrive.
After repressing thoughts and living a lie, sooner or later you start to believe that lie, which would make them harder to read via psychologists and the like.

Now im not saying they are involved at all, but would i be surprised if one day they broke down and admitted murder and disposal. Not at all, and every day that goes by without a body being found or maddie being found, makes this case that little bit more likely.

id price it up like this

body never found  1/4
killer/s found 16/1
maddies parents casued the death of her  5/2

Lack of evidence more like. Yes I've had a look at the website which is jampacked with innuendo supposition and unsubstantiated claim., No I don't know what happened and I guess it's unlikely any of us ever will.

Why is it still being debated? Because the story is a tabloid journalists wet dream - pretty little girl; attractive mum; foreign (mildly exotic) location; and divided opinions and prejudices to play with.

Fred in particular was known to Police for a long time, including for a complaint of kidnap. The Police dismissed it as him being a bit dim and 'the villiage idiot'
I don't think the McCanns killed their child, but wouldn't be surprised to find out that the girl either died or had a fatal accident whilst they were left alone in the apartment.
Saying that i'm pretty sure the Portugese Police were pretty incompetent and couldn't really give a fuck, like most tourist destinations.

It's been decades and decades since you needed a body to be able to charge someone with murder

Your attempt at a sensible argument is playing the lottery is a good bet? Do you want a £1 double that 1. The parents killed the kid and 2. You'll be taking your seat on the plane to South Africa with the rest of the England squad having filled the vacant left-back spot?

What makes you say that?

Please be quiet

The parents were responsible for 61% of murdered children in America. Maddie has parents. She disappeared. Thus she was murdered. Thus the parents did it. That's a sensible argument as well.

So in the whole covering it up agenda, where's the margin in doing their damdest towhip up a worldwide media storm on an unprecedented scale?

You've wasted 5 hours of your life reading lunatic conspiracy theories imo. If you want to waste another 5,000 then they're certainly out there.

Short change on youtube, the whole 9/11 was an inside job is a good place to start if you get bored of the dead girl.

Please Mantis

I wanted an adult discussion about the book, what it implies and peoples thoughts on what happened.

Youve said that you dont think they had anything to do with it, fine, opinions are what I asked for.

Dont turn this thread into another Mantis vs The World thread.

In response to your line of thought above, I think it would be foolish to think that she is still alive. Either she died that evening, or was killed by the media frenzy. If you had kidnapped a kid and all of a sudden the whole world was looking for her what would you do.

No one has said she was definately murdered, definately kidnapped, definately had an accident. I dont think she was kidnapped due to the various things Ive heard and seen in the papers, media. There are things in that book that pretty much rule out that she was kidnapped. In my head that leaves the other two.

Im not stupid enough to believe everything I read or see on the television. Which is why I was looking forward to having a discussion on here. So far though people just seem to be using the preconceived perceptions of what people are like.

So in the hope of something constructive, would your opinion be the same if they were a pair of Chavs from a rough area of Liverpool?

I have a feeling you're trying to disagree with me but you're just doing a very bad job of it.

I was saying that the fact they are her parents is irrelevant to this case and whether or not they are guilty.

Whether it's a gazillion to 1 or evens over the entire population is also irrelevant to this case.

If someone were to offer me 20,000,000 to 1 against them being the murderers in this particular case then I would definitely have a quid on it because anyone who thinks they are the true odds is just plain stupid.

The simple fact is that they either did it or they didn't. With no evidence to say that anybody else did it and also no evidence saying that they definitely didn't do it I think 20,000,000 to 1 is a damn good price.

I think you're selling yourself short there mate.

Once they started they couldnt stop?
They were 100% focused on making sure no one thought anything other than abduction.

I have no interest in 9/11 or conspiracy theories in general.

I do have an interest in a couple who I immediately felt were liars and an interesting case that seemed to disappear when they decided to return to England.

I realise Im very far on the side of they did it, but so far the only argument against them doing it on here is that it would be a 'lunatic' idea that they did.

Anyone harming their daughter or lying about it is absolute lunacy to me, that doesnt mean its never happened. There are many cases that make you sick to the stomach when you here them. Do you decide they cant have happened?

 :goodpost: ;iagree;

You can shhhhh aswell.

I completely agree with the above. If they had nothing to do with it then it must be horrible.
I do believe however that much of this speculation has been caused by their own actions.

Its amazing how many people seem to have had that reaction for whatever reason.

Sadly there seems to a mass of history behind the guy who wrote this book being dodgy as which must severely limit how much you can trust anything in it.  Added to the fact that by writing this book your pretty much guaranteed mega $$$$ especially if you make it nice and saucy for the reader.

Stu you can't raise a thoroughly ridiculous subject and ask for only the most sensible of debates about it. My frustration stems from your very contemplation of the idea. As poker players/gamblers we see favourable odds as somewhat of a religion yet you're advocating backing an incredible longshot here with pretty much no evidence to support the theory. On PHA if there was raise, 3-bet, 4-bet, 5-bet and then I advised jamming with 7-2 there would be a flaming frenzy, yet even jamming the 7-2 is a better bet % wise than the parents are guilty in this case. Also, I don't think people from Liverpool who wear burberry caps are any more or less likely to kill their children during family holidays abroad.

Once they started they couldnt stop?

lol

I do have an interest in a couple who I immediately felt were liars

lolol

There are many cases that make you sick to the stomach when you here them. Do you decide they cant have happened?

What I usually do is take one look at the victim and decide if I think they're telling the truth or not.

Sensible, reasoned response to the suggestion that the McCann's hid the dead body of their 4yr old daughter....

There were 9 at dinner that night - can anyone believe that only 2 of them knew what was happening? Or that anything up to all nine of them could know for over three years that they had covered up the death of a child and not let it out?

Seriously? ALL of them?

ALL of them either stupid enough not to join the dots after the event, or

ALL of them conniving enough to conspire in a cover up for over three years?

It doesn't add up for me.

Wish I coud think of something that did though.

Wish we knew what had happened to Ben Needham too.

and Genette Tate

Keith Matthews

Andrew Gosden

Rebecca Martine Smith

Ames Glover

and more and more and more...

But not everyone thinks its ridiculous, many people believe the McCanns no more than they have let on, and parts of their story definately dont add up.

I don't understand why you think its so ridiculous? Which part of it is so hard to believe?

For example

Your a doctor, you find your child irritating and gets in the way of your relaxtion. Your not 100% normal in most peoples definition as you decide to sedat your children. Thats a great plan, that way we can go out and we know they wont wake up and scream for us. One of them does wake up. Falls awkwardly of the sofa while looking for her parents and dies. The parents get back and think 'oh shizer, this isnt going to look great, we havent be back to check on them because we doped them' in the heat of the moment they decide to try and cover it up and fake a kidnapping?

Maybe I just watch too many films, but in my world, the world where people stab, shoot, kill and rape each other for fun, revenge and just something to do, its not that far fetched.

Yeah im making assertions and assumptions etc, but I just dont see why its beyond consideration that something happened involviing them.

Now you see thats more interesting, do you have any links to articles about the guys past? Obviously he sells himself as a saint in the book, with a daughter the same age as Maddy.

What?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2009/05/23/madeleine-mccann-hunt-cop-found-guilty-of-faking-evidence-in-missing-kid-case-86908-21382287/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1913175.ece

Just google Goncalo Amaral, theres the usual mix of truth, half truths and speculation :)

He's saying comparing the parents lies about killing their daughter to opening a tube of Pringles is funny.

If you look at a proven liar eg Karen Matthews...after 3 days her mask slipped and she was just standing in the street swigging Tennants out of a can in her pyjamas pulling faces at the camera and you compare it to the heartbreak in the faces of the McCanns every single day for 3 years and you notice a stark difference between fake and earnest. A normal person would see that difference pretty clearly.

I think you'd be heartbroken if you killed your own child though, whereas Karen Matthews knew where her daughter was.

Saving yourself from a couple of years in prison for causing the accidental death of your daughter wouldn't really be your absolute priority if you were heartbroken and your little daughter was dead would it? If the conspiracy theory is correct the McCanns would need to be seriously abnormal on so many different levels.

My point was you were comparing 2 unlike situations.

lets go with the idea that is what happened for a minute. Once the media get a hold of these things they can very quickly spiral out of control. what were they supposed to do, tell everyone to stop ?

in the 1950's there was a serial killer in lanarkshire called Peter Manuel. He actually helped the police in the search for the murderer of one of his victims. He also ws the one who 'found' the murder weapon and handed it to police...

You have too much time on your hands imo.
 
You spent 5 hours reading a book, that has been translated (possibly badly) and in any case the original was banned by a court presumably for inaccuracies (can't be bothered finding out exactly tbh), about a sad incident that has nothing do to with you.

This is definitely my favourite post in this thread, and possibly many others.

This thread is proving nothing to me other than how weirdly some people think about things.

I read a book about something I was interested in whilst at work, yes I may have too much time on my hands, yes it has little to do with me, I enjoyed reading it and found it very interesting. Whilst that is true I also found it strange that it had been banned, yet still available on the tinternetz and if it was all truths then they should have been arrested.

On the other hand you have just spent the time posting to tell me that I have too much time on my hands, that you cant be bothered to research what your saying and that it has nothing to do with me.

One of us may have too much time on their hands, but the other doesnt seem to have anything to do with his time.

Most of what we read, watch, discuss etc........ has nothing to do with us.

Except we are people leading similar lives, going to similar places, and it intrigues us why i happens to other people, and not to us.............. until something does happen to us, and then we want to know why everyone is sticking their noses into our business.

VWP

I think the whole line of this thread is disgusting.

I feel sorry for those people in the "they did it" camp

Of course they look guilty, I am sure they spend every second of every day regretting that they left there children unattended.

No doubt Stu you would have fared well in the Salem witch hunts.

Another sigh.

I've never been afraid of speaking my mind, and I'm not sure why wanting to discuss a book I read, albeit on a touchy subject would be classed as disgusting.

I also stated my thoughts and the reasons I was interested in the book in the first place. If those thoughts make you feel sorry for me then thats fine with me, but I cant really understand why. I always follow my gut feelings about people and in general the way I choose who to trust, interact with and deal with works out very well for me.

Ive not said they did anything, but was interested in peoples interpretations of them.

Mmm Salem witch hunts, another interesting comparison.

Hopefully Michelle will post her thoughts on here when she has read it.

Stu your stuffed before you even start with these types of highly emotive subjects, you are always going to get very strong opinions and generally speaking moreso from those who have their own kids.

I knew this thread would go down this route, hence the reason for not posting any more of my opinions.........

Thread worth it for this:

Im not worried about it Andy, just a shame we are on page 5 and there has only been one post of any interest to me.

After reading about the following I was intrigued and wanted to discuss in an open minded manner;

The writer
The dogs used to search the apartment
The parties accounts of that night
The statements about David Payne
The equipment that can apparently locate a body from a strand of hair (WTF!?!?)
The claim that if they were in the UK they would have been arrested on a lot less evidence than the Portugese police had.

Im not an expert on any of those things, and was looking forward to learning and discussing.
Obviously a few people arent impressed with the topic, or they way I have put it across and thats fair enough.

I just watched the documentary this Policeman did, on the same website.....I presume it covers the same "facts" as his book.

He tries to build a case against the Mccann's....but fails IMHO. There's no evidence.....one or two statements don't match up, a bit of half matched DNA.....,he's just making up a story that will sell a book/documentary etc.

I had to laugh when he points out that when Gerry was shown on the news, carrying one of the twins off the plane.......he was carring the child in the same way as the mystery man was seen carrying Maddie in the street!!

Maybe some of their "seems not quite right" post behaviour is down to the guilt of leaving the children alone.

Look, folks, if you find this subject far too sensitive for you liking then AVOID it, don't read it, don't post on it......

It reminds of the ridiculous TV complaints bullshit thing, where people report something that they find offensive or whatever!!!  Just don't bloody watch it FFS.

I just hope that one day Maddie will turn up and be able to tell her story and put this whole thing to bed, it's not knowing the facts that causes the controversy and I'm afraid the only people who know the facts are the parents and, sadly, we ain't gonna know what they are!

I would have £1 at 20,000,000/1 that cos did it.   

Yep. I'll be posting my thoughts on the book when I get the chance to read it ... could be a while as really busy with work at  he moment.

Wanting the link to the book interested me because it was a 'case' that interested me.   Unlike other disappearances where there has been no 'forensic evidence of violence' - for example Susie Lamplugh, with this case there was evidence ... the blood splatters in the apartment.   Now, this could have been due Maddie having an accident of some sort, whilst her parents were out.  It also may have been the result of something more sinister.  Who really knows .... that's the reason I wanted to have a read of this book whilst 'keeping an open mind' on this case.

As for my own thoughts on it , all I can go on is a gut feeling that something just didn't sit right at the time, and more with the dad than the mum.  I have nothing to base this on, just from what I saw on the television.   Now, again this may be based on guilt feelings eminating from the parents whose 'crime' per se was leaving under aged children unattended for long periods of time.


@Chrisbruce  ... I fail to see where the whole line of the thread is disgusting though.  The OP was not written in an abusive manor nor in a manor set out to deliberately cause controversy. It was a post set out to discuss a book about an event that captured many many peoples interest and intrigue. The content of course is not going to be pleasant because what happened to Maddie (if we ever find out) was not pleasant ... but it happened.  

Putting my thoughts out there, I think the only disgusting post on this thread is the one made by you Chris because it was a personal flaming about a poster who quite clearly was posting about discussion on the content of a book.

In a bit of a rush while typing this as the blonde league game has started.

Leave Stu alone. He's not the first or last person and deep down everyone has perhaps considered the fact they did even before this book was "published"

There was a lot of documented evidence that the initial forensic investigations were 'casually' done and were contaminated, making them totally useless in any court case if they did reveal anything.
It's also pretty well documented how corrupt and behind in terms of investigative techniques that Portugal, and other countries are. Pretty much the same for all core government business, taking healthcare as an example!

I believe the very small traces were eventually confirmed to be from a man who rented the appartment post the McCanns.

You find a single post on a poker forum disgusting because it was personal flaming. Then how disgusted do you feel about the daily flaming and accusations from numerous people who speculate that the McCanns killed their own daughter? I would imagine Stuart Hopkin is a big enough man to cope with a single flaming post about his choice of subject matter, but I wonder how those parents cope with their flaming? What incredible hell they must be going through. So I don't think you should be all that disgusted about a post on Blondepoker, you should be more disgusted by people who fuel McCann flaming based on their gut feeling and nothing more.

It will be interesting to compare content of the book v other documented statements.  Crazyness that the apartment, a crime scene, was even allowed to be rented out before forensics were carried out... unless of course this was confirmed in further forensic tests performed by the McCanns team having been dissatisified with the Portugal Polices enqquuiries/tests?

Lots to read up on here.

For what it's worth, I have played golf with Gerry McCann several times and indeed remember blurting out to my wife - "..that's Gerry McCann - he's a member at my golf club" when the story first broke on the TV.

He always seemed a straight up sort of guy. I can't say I know him well and haven't seen him in ages anyway but I find it hard to believe that he would do anything out of the ordinary as outlined in the OP. I have not read the 'book' myself by the way.

I also do not really have an opinion on the matter with regards to what transpired that night. The media tell us their story and theirs alone so it is never balanced. It is a very sad case and I hope they find Madelaine but in my heart of hearts I feel it is most likely that she is dead after all this time. (Like I imagine most of us do, which is the real subtext of the story and why it ran for so long).

The Mccanns. I feel sad about the misery they have gone through but on balance I find them pretty contemptible.

I don't know what they think about me

oh, pretty much stick on to dislike you. Everyone else does :-)

Difficult subject

Lots of emotive opinions


No flaming please (or quoting posts with flaming in), which is why a few posts have been deleted


Thanks for understanding

In with  ;popcorn;

Can't believe there hasn't been one yet 8)

Thanks to those who have stuck up for me, but please dont worry about any sort of flaming of me. I have little interest in what 99% of people think of me.

I like Chris a lot, and obviously this thread didnt sit well with him and I apologise for that, and respect his opinions. I have no problems with what he said at all so theres no point discussing that.

I may have been naive thinking this could be discussed as I thought. Im sure anything Tighty has removed was well jusdged as usual and I have no interest in seeing or knowing the content.

As Michelle said, I never meant to cause offence, most people on here who know me will know exactly when that is my intention!

The biggest interest to me, was the two specialist dogs flown over from Britain. They're searching and reactions.
I don't know much about such highly trained dogs, and if my only reference is that book.

It ain't necessarily so...

Why?

mr hopkin, I'm not going to read the book as the subject is of zero interest to me but could you tell me about these things that might be interesting

Agree with Gatso, give us a taster Stu of those things...

Ill have a go.

Mark Harrison a UK forensic expert who was working on the case suggested the use of two dogs.
One EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), this dog is capable of detecting human cadaver odour
One CSI (Crime Scene Investigation) dog, capable of of detecting himan blood.
13th July 2007 the two dogs, Eddie (EVRD) and Keela (CSI) arrive in Portugal.

The way they use the dogs is to send Eddie in first to detect if there has been the presence of a cadaver.
If Eddie believes a cadaver was present Keela goes in to find the slightest trace of blood.

Apparently the dogs, both Springer Spaniels have been used in many of the high profile cases here in Britain, with great success.

Allegedly Eddie let out a howl in both the parents bedroom, and by the sofa that had been pushed back against the window.
Keela then went in and found traces of blood between the window and sofa.
When searching the house they were staying in, Eddie came across the soft toy and again barked to indicate that it had the odour of being in contact with a cadaver.
These dogs also confirmed a cadaver had been present in the car helped find blood on the key and boot.

Obviously there is a lot more talk about the dogs and their behaviour, but I found it very interesting that these dogs appear to be relied upon here in the UK but the evidence they provided over there didnt count for much.

Kate heard of a former South African army colonel named Krugal, who had perfected a machine enabling him to detect the presence of a body.
This was apparently achieved by placing a a hair of the person in the machine, it could then detect and identical particles emitted by a decomposing body.

Apparently the McCanns requested he came to Portugal officially and this was granted.

He did his search and defined a corridor about 300m wide between the cliffs and the roman bath, stating "Madeline's body is in this area"
He then left.

The whole thing just sounds bizarre to me, could this ever be possible? Does anyone know anything about this guy and his machine? Apparently there has been a TV documentary?

Cadaver.  Good word.

Sniffer dogs are awesome aren't they?

These are probably basic facts, but I'm not clued up on this.

Was there any sign of forced entry?

How long do the McCann's say they left her alone for?

I'm reading it at the moment Stu so will post when i've finished.

Well Im only going on the book so if anyone has info from elsewhere feel free to contribute.

There was no sign of forced entry, the front door was still locked. The rear patio doors were never locked and were used to access the apartment. There was a window open when they discovered she was missing. This window could only have been opened from the inside.

They say someone checked every 15 minutes, but then the whole thing appears sketchy with someone saying 30 mins, others that for the first time that evening it may have been an hour. One of the guys only checked by listening at the window, he didnt actually look inside. The police also apparently found remains of lists that had two varying timescales written on them showing who checked at what times that evening.

Sounds like something off CSI Miami to me.

I believe that the dogs can find bodies and sense cadavers but this machine sounds a bit ridiculous.

I've got visions of that little woman off poltergeist walking down this 300m corridor saying "come in to the light Madeleine" and then stating "Madeleine's body is here".

stu just found this worth a look

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html

lol, this sounds like the dude who's been selling these things all over the world claiming they detect whatever it is that the people he goes to see may want to detect. abs no evidence that they work, plenty that they don't, yet they're being used as mine detectors in several warzones costing countless lives and as explosives detectors in place of dogs at several 3rd world airports. tried to sell to the british military but they told him to do one yet we don't stop the guy trading from the uk due to some ridic loophole

the dog evidence, if true, sounds fairly convincing as specialist sniffer dogs are pretty damn good. not much can be done if their actions can't be accpepted as proof in portugal though. I guess it's comparable to compelling evidence in the uk/usa being thrown out as it was obtained without a warrant

Just watched the first 5 mins of that video.
Obv lots of info on that site I will have a look through.
But I think you may have just made the thread worthwhile! Thanks.

I'm open minded just cos they are both doctors and look loving does not mean they have it in them to lie, The ones with the hire cars are good to watch too


would anyone of thought Lousie woodward was a killer  ( the 19 year old au pair who killed matthew eappen) by shaking him when he started to cry?? in the USA in 1997

explain please. In modern criminology does one need to frequent Hertz offices at airport terminals to be one step ahead of the pack?

Enterprise are the real criminals!

The trouble with the dogs is that they are sent in 3 months afterwards.....and by implicating the hire car, rented 3 weeks after the incident,makes for a good story,but seriously........

www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html      4th one down

Garry mcCann wrote in his blog that 3 weeks after the event  his fridge broke in his rented apartment so he took the fridge down to the local dump to get rid of it!!!  was the body of madeleine move on that day???  and how has blood got on the keys and hair and blood in the boot of the car???

Plus How many people on here have rented an apartment on holiday????

I think all of us have

so if you were on holiday and your fridge broke would you

1) ring the person who ownes the place and tell them the fridge is broke  and say you would like it replaced
2)  take it in your own hands to remove the fridge and go and dump it in a tip

let me guess 100% would pick number 1

The dogs sniff a number of vehciles, the McCanns hire car, Mr Murats and his friends I believe, there is nothing until they reach the McCann car, one dog indicates the vehicle has contained a cadaver, the other finds blood in the boot and on the key.

it was more the implication that you ahve to watch people who rent hire cars!


I have been reading the stuff anyway, some of it seems unequivocal/presented convincingly.

If that's the case, why were they never charged? There must be flaws in the articles being linked to/evidence being pointed to.

Anyone know how long has the book been available to read on the net?

He's made an absolute packet from it too. 

http://skepfeeds.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/head-of-atsc-bomb-detector-company-arrested-on-suspicion-of-fraud/



Would like to see the studies showing the accuracy of these sniffer dogs when they're brought in to do what it is claimed they can do in terms of locating spots where dead bodies were located in the past.

They're good - here's an article which gives a good overview of their work here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm)

But the summary that their handler gave was:
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."

There's tons more stuff - but nearly all of it is based on the dog alerting of something and ignores the fact that the official report was that it can only be used as corroborating evidence if any other evidence is found to support it.

The blood in the car is the only other evidence that was found, and both together weren't convincing.

That's a BBC article.  I want a link to the scientific studies.  BBC doesn't link to them, which is a ridiculous policy of theirs, as discussed here (http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/no-movement-on-the-bbcs-bizarre-links-policy).

That's why I said it was an overview

Did they say how long he rented the apartment for?

If he's there on a 2 week holiday then this is very suspicious. If he's on a 6 month or annual lease then he might well own the fridge and be responsible for sorting it out himself.

I couldn't find the reference in his blog....but he did say the owner being very helpful/understanding of the situation, so he was on friendly terms....maybe a new fridge was being delivered,and he was being helpful!?

If the body was in that fridge I'll match the Mantis 20 million to one ;)

I would say that the motive for Gerry McCann to take a knackered fridge to the dump was to dispose of it. People take broken stuff to the dump all the time. Maybe the owner asked him to take it. Maybe he wanted to do something useful. I think speculation about the motive for dumping a bust fridge doesn't connect someone to responsibility for a killing.

I think the motive that needs to be analysed is the one that leads parents to find their daughter dead on holiday and cover it up with a kidnap story before dumping her body in a fridge at the tip. In my opinion if you support the line that 100% of people on holiday don't dump fridges then you should also suppost the line that 100% of people just phone the police when an accident happens. Personally I would be really interested in people's opinions on why the parents would do something so weird and crazy, so so much crazier than throwing out a broken fridge.

So you're implying this is perfectly normal? Because it really isn't!

Yes people take stuff to dumps all the time, not usually things that aren't their own property and especially not when they are on holiday.

LOL @ the owner of the property asking him to do it.

If you don't think this is just a bit weird then you're off you're rocker.

P.s are you going to be at the blonde bash?

not for 1 min do i think the body was in the fridge, i think the body was at the dump and when garry went to dump the fridge he moved the body and thats how blood and hair as got in the back of the hire car



Plus on the night She was taken/killed when did gary go to the trouble of deleting all his calls in his mobile phone log???

Looked through the blog....can't find any ref to moving a fridge...do you know the date of the blog entry?

Where does it say he deleated his phone log?

i dont have time to look at the blog now to find it but i will asap

about the missing calls

 http://themccanngallery.blogspot.com/2009/10/lies-of-kate-and-gerry-mccann-deleted.html 

 http://truthofthelie.com/the-book/chapter-3/ 

if this would off happend in the Uk and they had gone to the pub across the road and all the FACTS were the same the McCanns would both be in prison now!!!

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080403043105AAUCrzy         Garry maccan remove the fridge part from his blog Why would you do that??

LOL - good source.

Its a well know fact he took and dumped a fridge from the apartment what has never been found, i have not read the full book yet that stu posted so not sure if it says anything in there about it

I dont think it is mentioned in the book.

I dont think the body would have been in the fridge, but again if people want to offer 20,000,000-1 i will be having a tenner as that bet is valooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Whilst I don't think it's a common happening I don't think it's necessarily bizarre behaviour, and I don't think it proves somebody is dumping the body of their dead daughter at a Spanish rubbish tip. If you appreciate that the guy just had his daughter snatched why do you think his behaviour should be 100% regular and in line with normal holidaymakers? Would you act a bit weird and unusual if your daughter was kidnapped on holiday or would you continue 100% normal? If the fridge broke he would ask the owner for a new one and he may offer to dump it to give him something to do because all that waiting around was killing him. Are you more inclined to believe he went to the tip so he could dump his daughters body amongst all the dirty nappies and other rubbish?

Freezer maybe.

Only a complete noob hacks up their dead daughter and puts the bits in the fridge.

I've dumped knackered stuff that belongs to my landlord before and replaced it out of the rent money with his agreement. Easier than getting him over to do it. I don't imagine it's that unusual, especially if this was a long term let.

I hope Mantis is going to the blonde bash as he's a nice bloke and one I have time for.

The original holiday was for 1 week. I can't imagine he'd get a long term lease so soon afterwards as his daughter could have been found/returned any day.

Any got cliffnotes for this thread?

I think the pigs over there are fuking truly awful and incompetent. For any of them to make money from the case is criminal itself. As for what happened to the kid, i ain't fussed tbh (not in a bad way, just its all been said before).

lol the only reason i was asking is cos we've had a lot of bad blood on the forum and i think it'd be good to meet in person.

My dad is a landlord in London and across about 15 years of renting out around 10-15 properties I've never once heard that any tennant took an item like a fridge/washing machine (certainly nothing bigger than say a microwave) and dumped it themselves. Maybe all his tenants have just been lazy.

I'm glad you have time for Mantis though Clare. He's probably jumping through hoops right at this moment.

Have a nice day

:)

what's that supposed to mean?  If you're implying he probably couldn't care less about what someone like me thinks then you may be right, but I happen to think the guy gets a lot of undue stick on here and does pretty to well not to bite back as a lot of others would, and thought it would be nice to show a bit of love.

I agree with you though - would be good if he could make it as you seem to clash a lot on the forum but are both decent blokes an would probably get on quite well if you met.

I have been following this thread and I, like Stuart, do get gut reactions about people.

When the girls Holly and Jessica from Soham went missing and saw the first interview with Ian Huntley I said to my husband 'he has something to do with it'. I knew straight away he was involved. However, when I saw the McCain's interview I thought they both seemed rather 'controlled'.

I have read parts of the book and the pieces I find rather disturbing, is how the parents treated their children on a 'family' holiday.  To me it seemed a holiday for them and not the children as such as they didn't seem to spend much time with their children and as they were both working parents, you would think that at a holiday time they would want to have more time them.

As soon as they arrive Maddie is placed in a play area for most of the time, they seemed to spend at least only  two hours a day with just the children.

They go out every evening leaving their children alone in a ground floor apartment with an unlocked patio door.

It was noted that Maddie often woke up in the late evening crying, surely this would make them more concerned, especially being in a strange place. I also believe she may have been given calpol or something if she woke up regularly.

I notice there is hardly any mention of the other friends they were staying with and results of their interviews with the police (unless I missed that in the book as I only skip read it). If as suggested, Gerry McCain did find Maddie dead, surely he could not have acted calmly in front of his friends when returning to the Tapas bar after looking in on the children.

It also seems strange that Gerry McCain used a key to open the apartment door when he know the french windows were unlocked and it was a more straightforward route to the apartment from the Tapas bar and why did he delete all his calls from his phone.

If he was covering up that Maddie had died, surely there would not be anywhere to hide the body in that short space of time before notifying the police.

My views are that yes the McCains were very neglectful in looking after the welfare of their children and feel very guilty about it, that is why they looked so controlled in their interviews, but think personally that their actions were being watched and the child was taken by a stranger, more likely by someone who was staying at the same holiday complex and had been watching the children.

I have not seen any mention of the police interviewing other holiday makers at the complex or about people who may have left that night or the next day!

Just my views.

Interesting post traffic jam, thanks for your thouhts.

I thought it strange to that they bundled the kids off every single day.

Obviously people may say Im not qualified to comment as I dont have children, however hopefully I will one day and under no circumstances would I ever holiday like this.

I was bought up that a family holiday was a family holiday. There may have been the odd times when a bit older my sister and I were aloud to go to the arcade etc alone, but the rest of the time was spent as a group of four. My parents would never have dreamt about leaving us in a playgroup.

Im sure this type of thing is more common these days, but I still dont think its right. Saying that I would except the argument that if I had a 4 year old and I was in Portugal, a days peace and quiet may appear to be a heavenly idea. Then again I suppose if I was at the end of my tether and I couldnt cope anymore I might bundle her off everyday. Well while Im at it I love a nice meal out and a drink, shall I drug my child to make sure she doesnt wake up while Im out?

Personally I think going on holiday and not wanting to spend any time with your 4 year old daughter is a 20,000,000-1 shot.
Oh hang on thats exactly what they did?

Just finished (skim) reading the whole thing now and personally while it was mildly interesting the whole thing just comes across as an attempted money spinner to me.  Theres very few facts backing up much of what hes saying and its padded out just for the sake of it repeating the same things over and over.

Did I just miss it in the book or was there no actual evidence the kids were sedated?  Was that just speculation?

Would be interesting to see some expert comments on the contents or some others views on what hes written though.  Still pretty much on the fence over what actually happened and guess we probably wont find out now.

The reality is the McCanns say they never sedated their children and independent tests on the twins prove they were never sedated. It's easy to see how crazy conspiracy theorists who turn those facts into Maddie was "drugged" can then as a natural consequence place Gerry at the scene of the rubbish dump with his daughter stuffed inside a kitchen appliance.

Whether they were sedated or not leaving them alone is simply unacceptable. Anything could happen. What if one of the twins wakes up choking? They'd be dead by the time they even realised

of course it is. there may be a reasonable explanation for it, but tht reason would need to be as equally  bizarre

:o

they did it

/thread

In fact its seems to be the only source!!....... at the height of speculation,there was mention in the press of hiding the body in a fridge.......I think Chinese whispers converted  it to Gerry dumping a fridge.

Well, Mantis is a decent bloke in real life...

20,000,000-1 shot imo ;)

£10 on this please - it's the best 20,000,000 - 1 shot on this thread.  Do you have £200,000,000?

Almost

Should I make it £9.95 then?

Your on but I get to choose the judge. ;)

Just finished reading this.
The statments about David Payne are very weird. I don't think the source is revealed just mentioned by initials but it was somebody that had been on Holiday with the group before.
The bit about the dogs is interesting. Even if it is 100% accurate i don't think it is enough to arrest anybody for.
They should definitely have been made to do a reconstruction - would have cleared up so many inaccuracies as well as potentially leading to more information.
According to the book 1 witness sees Murat carrying Madeline that night and one sees Gerry carrying her. Murat's place and car have no trace of her and Gerry's obviously does and most can be explained innocently.
I think there is just a lack of evidence. I can't see the body ever being found or any charge ever being brough against somebody.

[ ] That's fair

[X] If the bet results in a liability for me of £200m i think i would like an edge

this............1 way or another there actions resulted in the disappearance or death of their daughter

yes, I never could get my head around this at the time...... why they didn't use an onsite babysitter?.....these sort of family holiday sites specialise in this sort of service, and of course for two doctors , money shouldn't be a factor.

If the Portugese police had contacted Columbo this would have been done and dusted by now.

Just one more question...

and we would have got to know whodunnit right at the beginning!

This has hee haw to do with anything but it's awesome.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

he looks a bit like you Tank!

I don't think he has a tongue.

I'm giggling like a loon here - tongue or no tongue, he is a top dude!

how the hell do you find stuff like this?

trolololol lololol lololol
trolololol lololol lololol
a a a aaaaaaaaaaaa

impossible to sing all those lols without a tongue. You're just jealous.

LOL

Thread reaches an immense high!

Somebody gave me Kate McCann's book to read the other day and I remembered this thread. Reading her gut wrentching words made me think about the intolerable pain and suffering this once normal family went through. One of the things that stood out was how hoards of regular people were quite happy to suspect they were the killers based on how they 'appeared on telly' and such like. That sort of opinion hurt these people like you wouldn't believe when they were in a dark chasm of despair and in need of support.

Reading this thread back was bizarre on a number of levels. Generally I'm kinda intrigued why people in general are often willing to accept crazy conclusions based on nothing at all, not just in this case but in all conspiracy theories. In this case specifically I wonder if people are still nodding knowingly about what really happened based on their 'instincts'. On another note I paused especially to read posts from Laz who is part of this discussion and it had an impact that his words are still alive so to speak.

Anyway still happy to offer 20,000,000/1 for all the shrewd punters out there.

Not read this thread don't know what your offering .....but I'll have a pound at them odds!

Missed this thread at the time.

Finding Tank's video after the previous 11 pages must be like what BP feel when they finally hit oil after 6 months of drilling through rock.

I suppose they watch the news to be entertained, it's not like the story has any direct impact on them whatsoever. Suggesting that the parents were involved in the death is more entertaining to them, so they want to believe it. Finding out that it wasn't in fact true just takes a little edge off the entertainment factor, a bit like reading a great thriller and finding out at the end that it 'was all a dream'.
The police were pretty insistent...making them 'suspects', and declaring that traces of Maddie were found on stuff her mum had (no kidding, she's her mum), and that a trained dog had unequivocally signalled that a dead body had been in their hire vehicle (obviously she was smuggled out having been stored in secret under the gaze of half the world's press).

The bottom line with these 2 people is they chose to go " on the piss" with their friends and leave their 3 young children unattended ,neither maddie nor her parents deserved the outcome
Why did they not do what most parents do when on holiday ? Take the kids to the restaurant n let them fall asleep in their buggies / on a seat by their table ?
Were they not 2 " middle-class professional " people and a couple of chavs their other 2 kids would have been taken off them !

The bottom line for me is that she was taken. Granted, she shouldn't have been left, and if she hadn't been left, she wouldn't have been taken. But leaving them on their own was not the cause of the disappearance, nor can the taking be reasonably foreseen. The chances were very small. The parents weren't stupid/negligent for not taking it into consideration.
Do people ever leave their kids in bed and the doors to their house unlocked while they are in? Plenty do, and kids have been taken in these circumstances.


Agreed. Neither would they have had the massive campaign running into millions nor the very expensive police support, which, let's face it, has as good as caused the permanent loss of other similar kids, due to a deflection of resources.

The real chance of finding her was within 24 hours of the disappearance. And that was screwed up.