Who wants to learn cash game strategy?

[WellChief]

Whats your line on being out of position with a big draw?  Say you flop a flush draw with a gutshot and overcard, or even a straight flush draw, or just the nut flush draw.  If you decide to lead out with a hand like this, are you generally prepared to 3-bet and show the type of strength you would with a set?    The problem I often have is when I'm just called by a good player who has position on me.  The turn is then a lot harder to play.  Would you generally lead out strongly again, or check hoping for a free card and possibly attemp a gutsy check raise? 

[totalise]

Whats your line on being out of position with a big draw?  Say you flop a flush draw with a gutshot and overcard, or even a straight flush draw, or just the nut flush draw.  If you decide to lead out with a hand like this, are you generally prepared to 3-bet and show the type of strength you would with a set?    The problem I often have is when I'm just called by a good player who has position on me.  The turn is then a lot harder to play.  Would you generally lead out strongly again, or check hoping for a free card and possibly attemp a gutsy check raise? 

if the stacks are a suitable depth, I think the best line is to manipulate the betting in a manner that means you are the one putting the all-in move into the pot. Two examples:

a) you have $200 stack..1/2nl. $8 goes in each preflop. Pot is $16. You then lead for $16/$20, he raises it to $50/$60, then you can push your chips in.

b) you have $100 stack, $8 goes in preflop, Pot is $16. You check, he bets $15, you can push it in. If you lead and he raises, you dont have any FE... and the power of the semi bluff is in the strength of its ability to get people folding.

both of these look drawy, but its the way I recommend playing your monsters as well (as a stock style) so you get good coverage for that

If you lead and they call the flop.. well you are in the classic spot of being OOP with a hand that needs to improve to win. I generally just check, if you have a 12 out draw, if they bet 1/2 the pot or so, just call. If they bet the full pot and you think they wont pay you a bean more if you hit, fold, if you think they will pay you off, call. If you think they are full of shit, jam it in.  Playing draws for a check-raise on the turn is deceptive as people dont expect that, they figure you for a made hand, so you have a ton of FE, especially against aggro players.. just make sure you have the right opponent profile to make this move against before you do it

Whatever you do, make sure you actually DO have the implied odds to call before calling, most people over-estimate their implied odds on a huge scale, which means they make bad calls. Be objective and figure out if you really do have implied odds, and if you dont, then be disciplined enough to chuck it away

[WellChief]

Was also going to ask what you do about players who continually raise on the button?  If you are in the big blind, do you reraise with a wide range of hands?  If so, does that not create a bit of a problem that your out of position with a marginal hand, or does it discourage them and make them only raise with good holdings.

[WellChief]

Cheers thats what I was looking for, so with draws your looking to maximise your folding equity whist being the first to jam the pot, and following the same line with top two/set.  Good advice I think and its what I've doing lately.

[nirvana]

How much weight would you attribute to the 'table image' you have developed for yourself over a period of time  to the fact that you're a winning player and that people are familiar with you.

I guess what I'm asking is do you think you make more money generally playing at a table with 3 or 4 people you see regularly and a few unknown players, or, do you do better at a table full of unkowns. Other possibility is of course that it makes no difference.
,
I'm kind of referring to the stand - off that tends to get created amongst players who have seen each other win regularly to a degree or another. Each of the players known to each other (i dont mean as any kind of friends or soft-play) tend not to get into big pots with each other, a certain amount of stealing of pots goes on between one another that tends to even itself out.

It sometimes feels like 4 or 5 people have an undeclared detente and are waiting to take money off all the new money that arrives.

I'm happy playing at a table full of unknowns but overall I think I make more when a few people's styles are well known to me, and I hate to put it like this, you take turns taking the other money on the table - some sessions you get more turns than others.

Anyway, table image, familiarity and all that. A key factor or not in the online game ?

Quick thanks Mr Totalise (and others) for making so much time to provide a whole raft of cracking advice.

[matt674]

I'm an MTT monkey who wouldn't know a decent cash game strategy if it jumped up and bit me on the nose so my question would be this:

When does all this come out on DVD to save me having to read a 75 page thread in 3 weeks time?

[Sark79]

How much weight would you attribute to the 'table image' you have developed for yourself over a period of time  to the fact that you're a winning player and that people are familiar with you.

I guess what I'm asking is do you think you make more money generally playing at a table with 3 or 4 people you see regularly and a few unknown players, or, do you do better at a table full of unkowns. Other possibility is of course that it makes no difference.
,
I'm kind of referring to the stand - off that tends to get created amongst players who have seen each other win regularly to a degree or another. Each of the players known to each other (i dont mean as any kind of friends or soft-play) tend not to get into big pots with each other, a certain amount of stealing of pots goes on between one another that tends to even itself out.

It sometimes feels like 4 or 5 people have an undeclared detente and are waiting to take money off all the new money that arrives.

I'm happy playing at a table full of unknowns but overall I think I make more when a few people's styles are well known to me, and I hate to put it like this, you take turns taking the other money on the table - some sessions you get more turns than others.

Anyway, table image, familiarity and all that. A key factor or not in the online game ?

Quick thanks Mr Totalise (and others) for making so much time to provide a whole raft of cracking advice.

I was also wondering this as well mate.  If you take the higher limit NL games on Tribeca, it seems like the same 10 or 15 players play against each other everyday.  Does there not come a point where it is impossible to avoid being read like a book ?

[Newmanseye]

Quick one, when you have a table full of people easier to read than a John Grisham novel, yet its out of your Bankroll, do you still stay in the seat after an outdraw?

I ONLY ASK AS THATS WHERE I AM AT THE MOMENT.

[Gryff]

I'd like to respond to sarks question about Stud eight or better if I may, as I am probably one of the few posters here who plays it regularly online - its my bread and butter online game.

The skill level in Stud eight or better is monumental, while there are not as many "big differences" between good and poor players there are 1000000x "small differences"  each of which only gives you a small edge, so you need a much higher skill level to have as big as an edge as a good holdem player does over a poor one.

Also I think typing poor players is a necessity as you may only see a player for a few hours before they go bust having sat down with their whole bankroll or just never playing the game again.

You have to type not only their hand quality ( hands played % aka vpip for pokertracker players ), their agression, calling %, showdown% etc.
Stats are hard to find common grounds with in Stud eight because two players may have identical stats and one may be a loser one may be a winner.

To address the game a little bit you are looking to play hands that will take the low AND the high.
You put so little in on 3rd and 4th that 60-70% of the game is in skill on 3rd and 4th street and 5th-7th is really about maximising wins and minimising losses.

Some trashy hands that you might recognise:

Razz hands like 267 are folds.
Big pairs are folds ( except aces ) - Big pairs are ok to steal with in position ie no limpers and only the bringin left who is likely to call.
Big pairs are a strange hand in Stud8 - they are junk in low limit games but as you progress they have more and more value because the pots are more likely to be heads up so I fold QQ4 in a low limit game and raise it in a higher limit game.
Hands such as 2356 when two of the fours are gone - You're hoping to suckout for half the pot and you will not scoop enough.


Hands we like are:

any three running cards A23 up to 678 - that said 678 is trash multiway - its value goes up as the number of opponents goes down just fold it at low limits.
AAx where x is under 8 ( AA8 is ok but I'd prefer A8A for deception ).
One gappers eg A34 and so on.
Any three low cards where you only require two cards to make a straight - this makes A34 premium and A56 ditchable in a multiway pot vs another low.

At micro limits ( anything up to .25/.50 ) you can play 40% of your hands and still turn a profit because you'll get paid off when you make a hand.
At small stakes ( 1/2 up to 3/6 ) the play is generally standard across the board ( I mean play from 1-2 to 3/6 is the same ) the differences are usually in terms of what people call down with rather than anything else - you still get huge donkeys at this level in fact at an eight handed table at 3/6 I'd still categorise more than half the players are very easily exploitable.

I can't say much about the higher limit games except don't watch them if you are starting out the hands you play at low limits are similar but your betting is completely different, and some hands that you see played at higher limits ( you might see a pair of nines vs a low draw ) are just unplayable at low limits because its much rarer to get a pot heads up whereas as higher levels its the norm to play pots heads up - ie changing the structure of the game changes the hands values and so on.

My advice would be: Play 1000 hands, then go and read super system 2's stud8 section - then play another 9000 hands and read it again. Reread every 10,000 hands.

Once you've read it 5-6 times you can probably avoid reading it unless you really want it.


As for Poker Tracker - its categorisations are junk beyond micro limits you need to pay attention to more stats than VPIP and its rating.

VPIP, PFR, aggro, WTSD and checkraise are some of the stats I look at when I come across a regular player who seems to have some skill so I can deconstruct their play. ( Stud 8 is a small game online, at the small stakes there are less than 10 regular players who I feel can play the game and be profitable in the long run ).
You also need to notate what plays opponents are capable of - can they call down an open four flush if they think I'm full of shit? Can they check call 3rd and 4th in order to reraise 5th and thus get more money in the pot knowing the bettor will shutdown as soon as he's reraised.

That kind of thing.

[Sark79]

I'd like to respond to sarks question about Stud eight or better if I may, as I am probably one of the few posters here who plays it regularly online - its my bread and butter online game.

The skill level in Stud eight or better is monumental, while there are not as many "big differences" between good and poor players there are 1000000x "small differences"  each of which only gives you a small edge, so you need a much higher skill level to have as big as an edge as a good holdem player does over a poor one.

Also I think typing poor players is a necessity as you may only see a player for a few hours before they go bust having sat down with their whole bankroll or just never playing the game again.

You have to type not only their hand quality ( hands played % aka vpip for pokertracker players ), their agression, calling %, showdown% etc.
Stats are hard to find common grounds with in Stud eight because two players may have identical stats and one may be a loser one may be a winner.

To address the game a little bit you are looking to play hands that will take the low AND the high.
You put so little in on 3rd and 4th that 60-70% of the game is in skill on 3rd and 4th street and 5th-7th is really about maximising wins and minimising losses.

Some trashy hands that you might recognise:

Razz hands like 267 are folds.
Big pairs are folds ( except aces ) - Big pairs are ok to steal with in position ie no limpers and only the bringin left who is likely to call.
Big pairs are a strange hand in Stud8 - they are junk in low limit games but as you progress they have more and more value because the pots are more likely to be heads up so I fold QQ4 in a low limit game and raise it in a higher limit game.
Hands such as 2356 when two of the fours are gone - You're hoping to suckout for half the pot and you will not scoop enough.


Hands we like are:

any three running cards A23 up to 678 - that said 678 is trash multiway - its value goes up as the number of opponents goes down just fold it at low limits.
AAx where x is under 8 ( AA8 is ok but I'd prefer A8A for deception ).
One gappers eg A34 and so on.
Any three low cards where you only require two cards to make a straight - this makes A34 premium and A56 ditchable in a multiway pot vs another low.

At micro limits ( anything up to .25/.50 ) you can play 40% of your hands and still turn a profit because you'll get paid off when you make a hand.
At small stakes ( 1/2 up to 3/6 ) the play is generally standard across the board ( I mean play from 1-2 to 3/6 is the same ) the differences are usually in terms of what people call down with rather than anything else - you still get huge donkeys at this level in fact at an eight handed table at 3/6 I'd still categorise more than half the players are very easily exploitable.

I can't say much about the higher limit games except don't watch them if you are starting out the hands you play at low limits are similar but your betting is completely different, and some hands that you see played at higher limits ( you might see a pair of nines vs a low draw ) are just unplayable at low limits because its much rarer to get a pot heads up whereas as higher levels its the norm to play pots heads up - ie changing the structure of the game changes the hands values and so on.

My advice would be: Play 1000 hands, then go and read super system 2's stud8 section - then play another 9000 hands and read it again. Reread every 10,000 hands.

Once you've read it 5-6 times you can probably avoid reading it unless you really want it.


As for Poker Tracker - its categorisations are junk beyond micro limits you need to pay attention to more stats than VPIP and its rating.

VPIP, PFR, aggro, WTSD and checkraise are some of the stats I look at when I come across a regular player who seems to have some skill so I can deconstruct their play. ( Stud 8 is a small game online, at the small stakes there are less than 10 regular players who I feel can play the game and be profitable in the long run ).
You also need to notate what plays opponents are capable of - can they call down an open four flush if they think I'm full of shit? Can they check call 3rd and 4th in order to reraise 5th and thus get more money in the pot knowing the bettor will shutdown as soon as he's reraised.

That kind of thing.

Good post .  I will definitely take a closer look at Stud H/L.  Untill today, I really thought it was a crazy gambling game. How wrong one person can be 

[Sark79]

By a few of your comments in this thread, it sounds like you play mainly on Party.  I was wondering how many other sites you play on?   I have discussed this with a few other Blonde members already and found their different ideas over the optimum number of sites interesting.   Is there anything to be gained from playing at multiple sites in your opinion or do you feel it is more advantageous to play at one site?    I can see the advantages of playing at one site as being, the easier task of building a BR and the ability to learn the characteristics of playing styles.   Do the nature of ring games change between sites or is a $2/4 NL game the same at all sites? 

[TightEnd]

characteristics of $1-2 and$2-4 games are for certain different on different sites...playing on Stars versus Party is chalk versus cheese for example


May be a useful excercies  for another thread to rate each site for various characteristics

[NoflopsHomer]

characteristics of $1-2 and$2-4 games are for certain different on different sites...playing on Stars versus Party is chalk versus cheese for example


May be a useful excercies  for another thread to rate each site for various characteristics

 

[Jonboy]

Totalise ... great thread and thanks for your honest and insightfull views

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on multi-tabling;

I play almost exclusively short handed cash games and make a steady profit evey month playing recreationally around a full time job. Typically i can be found in relatively low-limit NLH games ranging from $0.25/$0.50 - $2.00/4.00 (Depending on my mood, current distractions, level of intoxication and the amount of my bankroll I withdrew the previous month).

Playing at a single table my hourly rate is up to around 40% the maximum buy-in/hour. Poker Tracker also shows 80% of my sessions show a profit (this may be artificially high because I will play longer than intended to recoup lost funds and turn the session into a positive). So far so good ...

... but every so often I entertain the notion that by multi-tabling I could make many more $ per/hour ... this is where it goes pear shaped!

Now I would not expect to make an equivalent hourly rate at each table, whilst playing four tables at once, but I would anticipate an increase in my total $ hour. Initially I thought that playing four tables would halve my hourly rate per table ... but given I was playing four tables my overall rate would still be double that of playing a single table. This was not the case, after trialling it for a few thousand hands I found my hourly rate was less than playing a single table!

Over the last couple of months I have given this a lot of thought and put it down to the following reasons;

1) The nature of NL dictates that the success of any session will often boil down to a few key decisions in key hands ... the calling of a big bluff, laying down a strong but inferior hand at limited expense, whether to call a pre-flop all-in etc. When multi-tabling I seem to have less information to base these decisions on having not followed the course of the game as intensley as I would normally, being distracted by the other tables.

This frequently leads to me laying down hands in +EV situations and potentially losing out on several large pots. The marginal decisions are also more difficult with less information to base a decision on ... hence I think I often call whilst multi-tabling when I could have made a simple laydown on a single table.

2) Large pots aside my stack is usually swelled by raking in more than my fair share of the smaller pots. When playing a single table I tailor this to the players at the table. For example not using continuation bets at such a high frequency against calling stations, using bluffs against rocks and those players defending a small profit, check-raising players who insist on using a continuation bet on every flop etc.

When playing multiple tables these moves are less tailored to the players and more 'robotic', which leads me to making the same mistakes that I often exploit in others that multi-table.

3) I use poker tracker and find it very useful, but when multi-tabling it is difficult to put the stats to a meaningful use, and examine past histories of new players that drift on to the tables. This leads to mistakes such as not noticing that the player that just re-raised you hasn't reraised in three hours of play ... so maybe your two pair has run into a set ... etc.

4) Players on tilt are harder to spot

5) It is site dependant, but I don't get on with overlapping tables.You often can't watch the action on tables when you are not involved in the hand, and the overall effect is somewhat chaotic. I know some sites (e.g. prima) allow you to shrink tables, but I would be interested in how you set yours up, and what hardware you use (large monitor?).


This post is about twice as long as i intended so I will leave it there, but your views in reduction in hourly rate whilst multi-tabling, compared to a single table, and how you manage the chaotic set-up would be appreciated.

Many Thanks

Jon.

[marcro]

WOW!  This is an outstanding thread - very well done indeed Totalise.