Who wants to learn cash game strategy?

[nirvana]

Think the advice to call a raise from a rock with any 2 is potentially the most profitable tip on this thread - fascinating reading for sure.

[totalise]

You touch on bankrolls, how about a mini guide to correct bankrolling, when to step up/down?
I know this is a common question but still interesting to see your view.

I think the main literature is wrong, very wrong

they can tell you the math, but they cant tell you the psychology behind it. They assume you are machines with no emotion, but people aren't like this

In my eyes, you need at least 50 buyins to even begin to be comfortable at a certain level in NL. I didn't move up to 10/20 until I had 150,000 in my party account, and even then it irked me to lose $2k on a bad beat. I can only imagine the anger levels I would have encoutnered If I moved to 10/20 when i had 60k like the books suggest, but thats something else that is important

In poker, there is a thing called risk tolerance. How badly does losing affect you. I always used to get really pissed off when I lost, and a couple of times I went broke (in poker terms) because of it. THat was from a $35k and a $29k roll, so its not small money. Just effectively pissed it away

Your bankroll should reflect your tolerance to losing. This is why I need a deep roll. I suspect people like pab are better at controlling their emotions, so I would guess he needs a smaller roll to play each level. My theory is this: what is the value of money lost compared to money won? winning $2k doesnt make me as happy as losing $2k makes me mad, so I need a bigger roll because of that. If you are a machine and winning/losing is the same, then you need a shallower roll. If winning money makes you happy, and losing money doesn't do a damn thing to you, then a) i want to be you, and b) you dont need much of a roll at all, because you can nearly always play your best game of poker, and you have a small chance of going broke

[ACE2M]

how much attention do you pay to the size of stacks around you? i will absolutley avoid sitting to the right of a huge stack and prefer not to have them to my direct right either. I know profit from the right etc but have you got any more advice on this?

[byronkincaid]

6-max, Is there a difference between how you should play with deeper stacks say 2-300 instead of a starting stack of 100 BB's. If everyone else is on 100 or less I should be playing the same right as my stack is effectively 100? What about if there are 1 or 2 others with similar stacks.

I seem to be the opposite to sark. I do well to start with for example I might fire up 3 tables and double up on 2 of them quite quickly but I never seem to be able to go much further. If I stay much more than an hour I just seem to dribble my stack away. I realise that it might be my concentration is getting worse as I go on and the other players are getting an idea of how I play, but there's something else as well. I think I want to lock that win in and I want to stop playing even if it's for a couple of minutes ie get my money off the table and go play another one.

I read an interview with Erik123 and he said he used to do that and his biggest step forward came when he stopped. I mostly play one hour sessions. Should I be playing longer, I realise that if there's a fish or 2 at the table it's madness to leave but I often seem to give them my money back if I stay.

Anyway this is today's problem. I hope this thread runs and runs . T will prob wake up with a hangover in the morning and think WTF has he started here.

[totalise]

how much attention do you pay to the size of stacks around you? i will absolutley avoid sitting to the right of a huge stack and prefer not to have them to my direct right either. I know profit from the right etc but have you got any more advice on this?

if i sit at a table and I think the big stack is a good player, then I'll just leave. If i think they are a bad player, then I dont mind where I am sat at all.

If they are sat to my left, I can check, they can bet, the table can call, and then I can raise and take the dead money. If they are sat to the rite, I can call their bet/raise to isolate.. either way the money flow is coming in my direction

I would spend more time trying to figure out whether or not the big stack is a profit source or not. If they are, you dont care where they are sat, if they aren't, you dont want to be on their table

[TightEnd]

Just catching up.....what a thread!


Please talk about your views on "set mining"....in what circumstances? what pre flop raises (as x the bb) will you call with baby pairs to hit sets?


Do you advocate trapping at all in cash? Or is it best to always bet your monsters?


Do you avoid tables with many or some small stacks relative to a maximum buy in? If so, why?

[totalise]

6-max, Is there a difference between how you should play with deeper stacks say 2-300 instead of a starting stack of 100 BB's. If everyone else is on 100 or less I should be playing the same right as my stack is effectively 100? What about if there are 1 or 2 others with similar stacks.

yup, your potential profit is always measured by how much they have in their stack, not how much you have in your stack (asuming you have them covered) If they have less, then call less, if they have more, and are likely to stack off with weak hands, then call more. Your implied odds are immense

I seem to be the opposite to sark. I do well to start with for example I might fire up 3 tables and double up on 2 of them quite quickly but I never seem to be able to go much further. If I stay much more than an hour I just seem to dribble my stack away. I realise that it might be my concentration is getting worse as I go on and the other players are getting an idea of how I play, but there's something else as well. I think I want to lock that win in and I want to stop playing even if it's for a couple of minutes ie get my money off the table and go play another one.

well thats OK, theres nothing wrong with locking in a profit. A lot of people that dont actually play much will tell you "blah blah blah, table is ripe, dont leave if you have an edge blah blah", but they dont really know what it feels like to double up and then lose that money. It goes back to what I said earlier, money lost means more then money won. Locking up a profit is fine if the alternative isn't so palatable. Why do you play poker.. is it to win? if so, then you figure out a way that helps you win the most. Jim Furyk sure does'nt swing with a standard golf swing, but it does him ok..so just stik with what does you best. If staying at a table too long ends up costing you money, then leave.

I read an interview with Erik123 and he said he used to do that and his biggest step forward came when he stopped. I mostly play one hour sessions. Should I be playing longer, I realise that if there's a fish or 2 at the table it's madness to leave but I often seem to give them my money back if I stay.

Erik prolly did it because he had a high % of his roll on the table at one go. Thats the thing with these people that most dont realise. Imagine there is 10,000 people all of equal skill. All 10,000 of them will go for the bingo shot and try and build up a roll quickly. 9,700 of them will fall by the way-side. The other 300 will become the Eriks/Loddens of this world. Thats how they got there, make no mistake about it. Its impossible to get from small stakes to 200/400 NL that quickly unless there was a huge risk taken with their roll at some stage. They were just the recipients of natual selection choosing them over all others. Like the sperm chasing the egg. Naturally he stopped when his roll was such that losingt didn't constitute a high % of his net worth. If you give money back if you stay, then leave. Maybe in a years time you dont do this, but its pointless to keep staying because of theoretical issues, but lose money each time you do it. Just do what is best for your roll

[totalise]

Just catching up.....what a thread!

yes, its going the way I hoped it would

Please talk about your views on "set mining"....in what circumstances? what pre flop raises (as x the bb) will you call with baby pairs to hit sets?

im glad this was mentioned, as implied odds are one of the things I think people over-estimate on a daily basis. Here is a real simple example. I consider myself a very agressive player. I raise from UTG with anything, lets say 5/7os. Someone calls from MP with 44. They will say to themselves.. WOW, if I flop a set, I will bust him. Two things will happen here:

a) they will miss, I will bet, and they will fold. Money down the drain
b) they will flop a set, I will continuation bet, they will call/raise. It doesn't matter, im done with the hand. The money they make when they flop a set isn't enough to counter the times they lose money when they miss.

Whats this leading to? its all about profiles. Who is the rite person to call raises with. If someone is real laggy preflop, they aren't goiung to give you much money post flop if you make your hand..so you have to re-rai preflop (which is a byprduct of hand strength, you dont need a pair to do this) or you fold. Calling is pissing chips down the drain

Compare this to some scumbag Mr I DONT RAISE MORE THEN ONCE A YEAR UTG, and he raises, and you have 33. You are gagging for him to have AA, if you could choose one hand for him to have, its the pow pows. These are the people you want to attack and get in pots with. .. as they back up their AA with their stack

One more thing needs saying, and thats about frequencies. MR UTG ROCK might make it 10BB preflop, and if your stack is 100 BB, you are only getting 10/1 implied odds on your stack.

Compare this to MR LOOSE.. he mite min bet, and you are getting 50/1 implied odds on your stack

the KEY KEY thing here, is the frequency with which your stack will get in the middle if you make your hand. Against the rock, its almost a cert. against the loose, its very unlikely.. so whilst on the surface you seem to have better implied odds against the lag, you will make more money from the rock.. because of the frequency with which your stack gets in the middle WHEN U MAKE UR HAND. That cant be over stressed

Do you advocate trapping at all in cash? Or is it best to always bet your monsters?

This is the one aread that depends on table dynamics... but in general I like to build pots. I dont mind building pots if i have a moster or if I have nothing. My hand is irrelevant if I have nothing, as long as I have a clue what the other person has. If I am sure they have a flush draw, and I am sat in position with complete filth, I will still bet the turn because 4 times outta five the pot is mine anyways, so I mite as well make money on the turn. Naturally this is a byproduct of building pots when you have a hand as well. If you are sat on the flop and its Kjj and you have KK, well you mite as well just go ahead and bet. If they have a jack, their stack is urs the second you bet the flop. If they have nothing, they fold anyways no matter when you bet,  so just go ahead and build it up (you also get them calling on gutshots due to our friend implied odds.. so thats anothe great thing)

Do you avoid tables with many or some small stacks relative to a maximum buy in? If so, why?

I almost actively seek these people out. I know what their strategy is, I can make myself unexploitable. If they double up once, they leave the table, if they lose, they keep on reloading. You are risking what is in their stack for potentially 4 or 5 times what their current stack is. Its the easiest money in poker. Anyone who says they hate shortstacks is a one dimensional bad poker player

[TightEnd]

What are your biggest losing situations in your cashgames, whether from PT analysis or your own analysis?

Overpairs against sets? trips versus nut flush draws hitting?...ie what do you find it difficult to get away from and what is it in betting patterns/observations that allows you to avoid "whole stack" moments?


How often do you, if ever, make a play at a pot on the river with say a missed draw as it is your only way of winning  a pot? Or do you check/give up? What is your EV of bluffing to win on the river?

[totalise]

What are your biggest losing situations in your cashgames, whether from PT analysis or your own analysis?

Overpairs against sets? trips versus nut flush draws hitting?...ie what do you find it difficult to get away from and what is it in betting patterns/observations that allows you to avoid "whole stack" moments?


How often do you, if ever, make a play at a pot on the river with say a missed draw as it is your only way of winning  a pot? Or do you check/give up? What is your EV of bluffing to win on the river?

without a shadow of a doubt, my biggest losing play is calling with pp's post flop when i dont set up. Someone will raise pre.. I'll have say 77, flop is 963, I check, they bet I call. This is OK i guess, but then on the turn it comes a 10, I check and they bet again... I'll end up calling, and then the river comes say a 4 and I'll donk the river and get turned over by QQ. Conversely, i think i play draws about as well as anyone on the internet. Thinking about it, I probably make so much money from draws because of the bad way I play my pp's, so maybe its a good thing in the grand scheme of things

I also dont get stacked very often(if I am the one betting it ).  it takes some kinda strange deck for me to get my stack in the middle and lose. Thats  not to say that my stack doesn't go in the middle often, because it sure does, but I think I pick my spots really well, and dont get called often when behind. Most of the time I am behind in the hand, my stack is in the middle via calling rather then betting (through some filthy semi bluff gone wrong). Most of the time I try and take a lower variance approach to poker, i play 4~~8 tables at once, so I try not to be sticking my stack in the middle on virtual coinflips, although I do find it hard to turn down an edge if I feel I have one. It all comes back to reactions. If I think I mite steam if I lost, I'd probably turn it down, even if it was a small edge.

If i think a river bluff will work, then I'll bluff the river. If I've played the hand in a manner that betrays my hand stregth, then I wont bluff. A perfect example of this is if someone is laying you great odds on a flush draw on the flop and turn, and then you miss. Dont bluff here, just be happy you got the chance to draw cheap. I would also say that my bluff % is one of the best on the net because I choose to repesent hands all the time, sometimes I'll represent the hand I have, sometimes I'll represent the hand I want my opponent to think I have. All you have to do is make sure your bet on the river makes sense. if you have clubs, the flop is two clubs, and u call flop, call turn and push river when it misses, that makes no sense.. you get called to often.. so make sure your hand makes sense from start to finish. Conversely, this is a great line to take with a set, but people dont do it because of flush draw fears. Sometimes adopting a bit of risk is the best way to win a huge pot, and I kinda like winning 1 huge pot rather then a few smaller ones

One final thing, when people do something that you wouldn't expect, its generally a sign of strength rather then weakness.. so if you have someone that always bets, and they check the river, they normally have a huge hand, and if they normally check, but this one time they overbet the river, you can fold anytthing but quads, as they have at least the second nuts. Thats where the whole "EASY FOLD" came from in your nut boat vs straight came from in the PHA board

[totalise]

Anyway this is today's problem. I hope this thread runs and runs . T will prob wake up with a hangover in the morning and think WTF has he started here.

we will see how true this statement is. I'm off to bed now, so we'll see what kinda state I am in tomorrow!


Keep the stuff rolling in if possible!

T

[thetank]

I think this is a great thread. Perhaps the best one I've ever seen.

I've just read through it and it's been a real eye opener.

I'm going to disagree with a couple of things you've said. I hope no-one sees this as a sign of disrespect. I think totalise is a fantastic asset to this forum. He always takes time out to help people with excellent analysis.
I believe cash games players have far more skill than tournament players. From what I've read, totalise is one of the best csah game players (or one of the best who's willing to share their thoughts consisely and honestly) IMO this makes him the best full stop.

I ain't just trying to argue for the sake of it either. I just believe that a bit of debate helps hash out greater understanding.
In many cases, people retort and I realise what and where I might be wrong.

Rolf tends to take everything too far. He has a book coming out soon, i'd recommend you dont read it. What he fails to understand is that he might wait an hour to find a great table, and he has lost himself an hours wage.

I think there's no such thing as a bad poker book. I'd recommend a prospective player read any one they could get their hands on, and just not take any one source too literally.
If anything it gets them thinking about the game more. If the writer is talking piddle and the reader disagrees, at least the reader is thinking about why they disagree.

The other point I don't necessary agree with is the next one. Of the player who spends an hour on game selection having lost 60 minutes wages.
It gets the session of to a disciplined start, and you can spend the time learning the players you're about to sit with.

Just like this....

 What is optimal behaviour is to sit down, and not play any hand at all for the first 10 minutes (unless it is a monster) this gives you a great period of time to learn the table, learn the tendancies, and then learn how to make money from other people. Once you are armed with this info, you are in a golden spot where you can play your hands and expect to profit from it, without giving other people a free chance at profiting from you

I agree whole heartedly

Surely we're not losing 10 minutes wages though.

Perhaps 60 minutes is a tad far, I would think that it could take somewhat less time. Maybe the hour he quotes isn't so much a literal thing though. Perhaps he really means, a significant amount of time.

[The Baron]

Think the advice to call a raise from a rock with any 2 is potentially the most profitable tip on this thread - fascinating reading for sure.

Agreed.

[Bongo]

It's also the most entertaining when they go on some huge rant about how you're an idiot after you've just stacked them....

[The Baron]

"Oh yea, and also if you are playing PL, you are almost forcing yur oppo's to play better against you as well. One thing people are well known for is underbetting when they have big hands and you have draws. When its PL, they feel obliged to bet pot, so they dont give you a good chance to turn them over, they are almost being forced to play better poker because of the structure of the game."

Similarly sites with a "bet pot" button generally have better cash players.