QQ hand out of position - thoughts pls.....

[Junior Senior]

This is not a specific or actual hand.  This post comes about from me having too much time on my hands to dream up poker problems and the fact that i have encountered similar situations recently whereby i feel a certain type of non-conventional defensive / protective play may be better than standard ABC defence stuff and may have prevented me from beign sucked out on. - i'll explain.....

Online MTT with 9 prizes. 25 players left.  Blinds are 300/600 on a 15 min clock and i have 5,800 and am in the BB.

The action is folded around to mid/late position area and the 4th largest stack who has 18,500 - he makes it 2,100 to go.  Everyone folds and its back to me.  I have 5,200 remaining after posting the BB and look down to see sharon  and sheila  staring back at me.  Now normally 95% of the time this is a straight forward push right? his 1500 with another 3700.  The problem here though, is even if the big stack has junk, he has odds and the stack to call and could easily suck out on me.  This could also be a positive as if he calls with junk he will probably double me up.  However, in order to fully protect your hand -  what about another option?>....


Just call the 1500 and push my remaining 3,700 on ANY flop without an A or K.  The pot pre-flop is 4500, so surely any odds to call pre-flop will be gone on the flop (provided he missed) - also if he does catch something marginal he may double you up by calling with a worst hand.

Anyone see any flaws to this play or does EVERYONE push pre-flop and take their chances? -

thoughts......

[booder]

push push push............what if he has 88...........flop comes ace rag rag.........you check he bets...........you gonna fold?

[Junior Senior]

well, that boo is a flaw to this plan in deed and i did think of that. - so what about pushing absolutely any flop regardless?

just trying to get some thoughts here......

thanks mate!

[M3boy]

Push BEFORE the flop - takes any post flop decision away.

[WellChief]

Well you don't really want him to fold at any stage of the hand, you want full value out of your queens with your stack.  You don't want to call then make him fold his AQ on a low flop.   Stick em in preflop.

[Junior Senior]

good good, thought it might be a bit one sided this.

what about if he has something like      and the flop is    , i can push here and he folds and i protect my hand, whereas if i pushed pre-flop and he calls the turn and river could come

 

 

and i lose when there was no way he would call my flop bet. - so if played with no all-in until the flop then i win but if all-in pre-flop then i lose.


further thoughts......

[booder]

he might have 3 3 ...flop comes 3 5 9   you are in doo doo.............he might fold preflop if you push

[Pab]

Stacks are not deep enough to allow post flop play, You have to push knowing you are way ahead of his range, if he calls with junk and sucks out, blah, load up the next one

[Junior Senior]

hmmm.
still keeping an open mind.

btw - i have never attempted such a move before and i would 100% push here but wondered if there was an argument for anything else.

STOP PRESS!!!!

Just seen Pab has posted. - guess that's debate over then :-) - if he says push then we should ask how hard right? 

gl all

[jezza777]

I kind of like your thinking , if he has AK then he does not make a mistake by calling an all in preflop as he is getting s decent price ans is garunteed to see 5 cards . With AK on a missed flop however he makes a mistake by calling your allin. I could  argue that you should be trying to get the most valur from your QQ and general theory is that you charge opponents to hit their hands. In tournament situations the more times you can prevent your entire stack from going to the centre the less chance you have of busting out . I like ideas which give you the best chance of winning without showdown.

[SupaMonkey]

Here is how i see this.

I think that if the guy is raising from a late position then you should push preflop because his hand is wider and you will get crap calling you a fair % of the time.

If someone raises from early position, you call and an ace flops, you can let the hand go without feeling too bad about it. If no ace hits and you push you may be called by a pp (cos it's likely to be a reasonable pp). Also, i would push on a king high flop.

In short, push if they raise from LP and stop n go if they raise from EP.

[Pab]

My answer was a bit abrupt, and was thinking about the situation whilst getting ready to go out just now. The stop n go is a definate option, but i do gotta go now as taxi is coming, ill take a look at this again tomorrow and see how looking at it through the hangover goggles changes my perspective, :-)

[Trix]

What you are suggesting is known as the Stop and Go.

The idea of the stop and go is to avoid a coinflip preflop and deny your opponent proper odds to call due to you pushing post flop.

eg You are in the BB with pocket , you have 6000 chips blinds are 400-800. Its folded to a guy in middle-late position who raises to 2000 and has you covered.
If you push here, he is getting 2-1 and is hence getting the odds for everything except Aces and Kings and you will be in a coinflip (at best) for your tournament survival.

If you wait till after the flop to push and the flop comes say Q 7 5, then he is still getting 2-1 to call but if he has AK, AJ, he needs 3-1 to call. The advantage of this move is of course you may also get a hand like 99 to fold. if he has AQ you are of course screwed but he would have beaten you anyway.

So yes it is a good move if used at the right time. It is prime for a weaker hand like or but it is not the move IMO for a hand like QQ since its highly unlikely you are dominated by an overpair and you want a call so shove it in preflop. I think you are playing a little scared if you dont want all the chips in with QQ.

Now normally 95% of the time this is a straight forward push right? his 1500 with another 3700.  The problem here though, is even if the big stack has junk, he has odds and the stack to call and could easily suck out on me.

this is really negative thinking mate, QQ against junk is a huge favourite. You cant be scared to go in just because of the possibility however small that you may get sucked out on.

[Royal Flush]

The idea of a stop and go is usually used for junk hands when you are fairly sure your oppo is on the blag.

Ax KQ etc. I wouldn't do it with QQ as i want a call.

[Pab]

Just got back from the pub, so this may sound a little retarded, i agree with flushy, the stop n go is used as a 'move' whereas QQ is strong enough, regarding your chipstack to welcome action, IMO. Even if you think he has to call, you still have to push woth QQ as you know your are a big favourite against his range. Im going back to my original statement, the stacks are not even close to deep enough and you are out of position so smooth calling with QQ would be a mistake