Playing TT OOP

[jezza777]

Thanks for your thoughts Matt. When I say I dont like to get my stack in early in a comp I generaly mean preflop. I just dont think it is worth shovelling all my chips in early doors when there are very few chips in the middle. I think however I do play too tight early which is why I cash often but dont win as much as I should. It probably explains my very good satellite record too.
I suppose if I thimk I am ahead I should wantto get my chips in whatever the stage of the tournament.

[matt674]

Apologies - misinterpreted your thoughts. I agree with what you are saying - trying to steal blinds when they are only 10/20 and everyone has around 1500 is pretty pointless, as is taking unnecessary risks to try and accumulate chips at the beginning of a tournament ("gambling" i believe is the phrase they most commonly use when going all in as a 3-1 underdog whilst only getting pot odds of 6-4  )

By the same token though if i have AA and i reraise preflop only to have my opponent go all in then i call every time.

[jezza777]

Do you take a coinflip with QQ tho? AA and KK are the only hands I play hard early on , in crypto tournies you often get a call.

i suppose what I am saying is that in a situation where you "know" you are ahead then early in a tournament is it worth getting your chips in? I know that it is +ev and a good players edge comes from these situations but I am still reluctant. I believe that I am good enough to win the tourney and I feel there will often be better opportunities for my chips. In his book Eric Lindgren says that you cant afford to pass up +ev spots and the skill is in getting your chips in but I am not convinced. Anytime I take a hand to showdown I can be out of the tourney and I would rather move in on the button with 78s later in the tourney and win without contest than call an all in with QQ in the first few levels.

I think I may be a wuss.

[matt674]

Do you take a coinflip with QQ tho? AA and KK are the only hands I play hard early on , in crypto tournies you often get a call.

All depends on circumstances - how many are in the pot, who is in the pot, the buy in of the tournament etc etc.

i've probably called more times than i've passed with QQ and a lot of the time been surprised that i'm a lot better than a coinflip. a pocket pair JJ or less and i probably pass - there will probably be much better opportunities for me to get my money in with hands where i have better odds than a coinflip so early in a tournament.

[jezza777]

Do you take a coinflip with QQ tho? AA and KK are the only hands I play hard early on , in crypto tournies you often get a call.

i suppose what I am saying is that in a situation where you "know" you are ahead then early in a tournament is it worth getting your chips in? I know that it is +ev and a good players edge comes from these situations but I am still reluctant. I believe that I am good enough to win the tourney and I feel there will often be better opportunities for my chips. In his book Eric Lindgren says that you cant afford to pass up +ev spots and the skill is in getting your chips in but I am not convinced. Anytime I take a hand to showdown I can be out of the tourney and I would rather move in on the button with 78s later in the tourney and win without contest than call an all in with QQ in the first few levels.

I think I may be a wuss.

[matt674]

Its a difficult one as different players have different playing styles and they will interpret this in different ways. As there is no wrong or right it is a debate that will remain unanswered. For me personally it all depends on how in front i think i am, its very rare that i will take a chance calling all my chips on a coin flip or with a hand where i only have a very slight +ev as a 52-48% fav very early in the tournament preflop but by the same token i may reraise someone all-in when we hold the same cards as i am giving them the opportunity to lay down their hand. (i have to be sure that the player in question is capable of being able to lay the hand down).

i posted something similar in another thread on blonde (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=10427.0) - like you i always believe that when i sit at a table that i am the best player there (even if that is not the case, if i dont tell myself that then i am starting on a negative) and that i can outplay my opponents so why take chances with hands that are only very marginal when i believe that i can outplay him and get my money in on a better opportunity.

Yes you want to try avoiding taking a hand to showdown if it means that there is a possibility that you can be eliminated as i mentioned in another thread (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=4182.0) but then if someone offers me an opportunity to get my chips in the middle as a 4-1 favourite with 1 card to come then i'm not going to turn it down.

[JungleCat03]

I often think the term coinflip is misleading.

There are genuine coinflips in NLHE(like 22 v AK) but QQ v AK isn't one of them.

 56% v 44%. This is an edge and not an insignificant one either. Bear in mind there will also be an overlay provided by the pot as QQ is rarely folded without a reasonable amount of preflop action.

I've read hundreds of articles and posts from top NL holdem players who nearly all insist they never pass edges like this.

Another point to consider is that early in the tournament is where you find the most dead money and often people will have wider ranges than just AK AA  KK QQ when they get their chips in the middle.

Let's say u start with 2000 chips and it's 10 20. You have QQ on the button. UTG makes it 80 to go. You rerraise to 200, the blinds fold and he now goes in and you happen to know he will have AK here. (newman'seye saw an AK tell and told you.) 

There's 430 in the pot and it's 1800 to you to call. When you call on average you finish the hand with 2256 chips, when you fold you have 1800 left. These 456 chips you have giving up by passing here are pretty valuable.

Let's say you fold and pass hands for 3 rounds till you get KK on the button on 15 30. Again utg raises to 90 and you make it 250. He pushes again and this time you call your 1710 stack as you know he has big slick(thanks to newman'seye again - must buy him a drink).

 You win on average 2404 chips here. So you win an extra 148 chips on average and the variance of this hand is lower as you bust out only 30% of the time instead of 44%.

But you've also missed an opportunity to win more chips if he has over 1710 in his stack and also, if you had won the earlier hand you bust out on this hand 0% of the time if you have the raiser covered.

For these reasons i don't think you should turn down edges like these and the more I read the top tournament players saying they wouldn't do it, and they are certainly better players than me, the more I think it is an error.

I await the flaming! ( come on mystery i know you're out there ready to disagree!)

[NoflopsHomer]

ok I dont like the way this plays out.

When the blinds are so small I dont see the point of raising with 1010, especially in such an early position. Is limping with the intention of calling a raise such a bad thing this early in a comp when the stacks are deep? If you get a caller in the next couple of seats then the button will likley call to use position , then the bb probably feels priced in to see a flop with a wide range of holdings. Now you are in an unenviable position of playing a swollen pot OOP with a hand that is very vunerable unless it sets up.

There is 285 in the pot on the flop and you lead for 240 . A fair enough bet but due to the preflop raise the bet is costing you 10% of your stack. Early on in a tourney I think it far  better to try and keep pots small if you can .

I am really struggling to put him on a hand here, partly because when the stacks are deep and it's cheap to play people play all sorts but also because the flop looks very innocent . A great flop for tens really. I think he has 97 for top pair which hits its second pair on the turn. It is the only holding that makes any sense to me.(although a set would look similar)  As you raised preflop he will expect you lead out so he flat calls with the intention of playing back at you on the turn if you check. Then not only does he hit his second pair but you lead again for 390 , which I think is just over half the pot. Now he really must give you credit for a hand and the way it has been played an overpair is your most likley holding, I think Ak and the like give up on the turn.

I dont think you can call thr river all in your hand isn't strong enough and I think all in river bets like this mean immense strength a lot more often than a bluff.

Going back to my first point , we all learnt that aggressive poker is winning poker , if you come into a pot it should be for a raise ectect.. I think that this still holds very true in the middle and latter stages of tournaments. In the very early stages however I have found myself playing almost anti-poker. I will call with big pairs and aq ak ect and try to keep the pot size manageable and disguise the strength of my hand . I very very rarely get all of my stack in the middle in the first few levels and will easily fold quite big hands. I do play suited connectors and the like however , usually coming in for a raise and always with position. Again this disguises my hand and if I hit I can stack someone. I think early on in tournaments is all about implied odds.

I know it sounds like I am advocating calling alot and general passiveness here which goes against the grain but these days poker is so aggressive that people overvalue and overplay hands a hell of a lot. There are a lot of chips to be hoovered up early in a tournament .

Well thats a bit jumbled but it's late.

good luck

jezza

It's funny because shortly after, I started playing a bit more like how you describe and it certainly can work.

Table "CPC 2006 WeeklyFinal 3338367 - 4" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: Wayne1956 (3210 in chips)
Seat 3: Char24101 (3475 in chips)
Seat 4: Vidivici1 (4220 in chips)
Seat 5: Gannerrhy (5135 in chips)
Seat 6: Buffsta (1705 in chips)
Seat 7: Brenda (4315 in chips)
Seat 9: 1986 (685 in chips)
Seat 10: Oneputt (2255 in chips)
Gannerrhy: posts small blind 25
Buffsta: posts big blind 50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Gannerrhy [ ]
Brenda: folds
1986: folds
Oneputt: calls 50
Wayne1956: folds
Char24101: folds
Vidivici1: folds
Gannerrhy: calls 25
Buffsta: checks
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
Gannerrhy: checks
Buffsta: checks
Oneputt: checks
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
Gannerrhy: checks
Buffsta: checks
Oneputt: bets 150
Gannerrhy: calls 150
Buffsta: folds
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
Gannerrhy: checks
Oneputt: bets 350
Gannerrhy: raises to 900
Oneputt: calls 550
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Gannerrhy: shows [ ] (Two Pairs, Aces and Queens, King high)
Oneputt: mucks hand  [ As]
Gannerrhy collects 2250 from Main pot

[jezza777]

I often think the term coinflip is misleading.

There are genuine coinflips in NLHE(like 22 v AK) but QQ v AK isn't one of them.

 56% v 44%. This is an edge and not an insignificant one either. Bear in mind there will also be an overlay provided by the pot as QQ is rarely folded without a reasonable amount of preflop action.

I've read hundreds of articles and posts from top NL holdem players who nearly all insist they never pass edges like this.

Another point to consider is that early in the tournament is where you find the most dead money and often people will have wider ranges than just AK AA  KK QQ when they get their chips in the middle.

Let's say u start with 2000 chips and it's 10 20. You have QQ on the button. UTG makes it 80 to go. You rerraise to 200, the blinds fold and he now goes in and you happen to know he will have AK here. (newman'seye saw an AK tell and told you.) 

There's 430 in the pot and it's 1800 to you to call. When you call on average you finish the hand with 2256 chips, when you fold you have 1800 left. These 456 chips you have giving up by passing here are pretty valuable.

Let's say you fold and pass hands for 3 rounds till you get KK on the button on 15 30. Again utg raises to 90 and you make it 250. He pushes again and this time you call your 1710 stack as you know he has big slick(thanks to newman'seye again - must buy him a drink).

 You win on average 2404 chips here. So you win an extra 148 chips on average and the variance of this hand is lower as you bust out only 30% of the time instead of 44%.

But you've also missed an opportunity to win more chips if he has over 1710 in his stack and also, if you had won the earlier hand you bust out on this hand 0% of the time if you have the raiser covered.

For these reasons i don't think you should turn down edges like these and the more I read the top tournament players saying they wouldn't do it, and they are certainly better players than me, the more I think it is an error.

I await the flaming! ( come on mystery i know you're out there ready to disagree!)


Great post.

[matt674]

I often think the term coinflip is misleading.

There are genuine coinflips in NLHE(like 22 v AK) but QQ v AK isn't one of them.

 56% v 44%. This is an edge and not an insignificant one either. Bear in mind there will also be an overlay provided by the pot as QQ is rarely folded without a reasonable amount of preflop action.

I've read hundreds of articles and posts from top NL holdem players who nearly all insist they never pass edges like this.

Another point to consider is that early in the tournament is where you find the most dead money and often people will have wider ranges than just AK AA  KK QQ when they get their chips in the middle.

Let's say u start with 2000 chips and it's 10 20. You have QQ on the button. UTG makes it 80 to go. You rerraise to 200, the blinds fold and he now goes in and you happen to know he will have AK here. (newman'seye saw an AK tell and told you.) 

There's 430 in the pot and it's 1800 to you to call. When you call on average you finish the hand with 2256 chips, when you fold you have 1800 left. These 456 chips you have giving up by passing here are pretty valuable.

Let's say you fold and pass hands for 3 rounds till you get KK on the button on 15 30. Again utg raises to 90 and you make it 250. He pushes again and this time you call your 1710 stack as you know he has big slick(thanks to newman'seye again - must buy him a drink).

 You win on average 2404 chips here. So you win an extra 148 chips on average and the variance of this hand is lower as you bust out only 30% of the time instead of 44%.

But you've also missed an opportunity to win more chips if he has over 1710 in his stack and also, if you had won the earlier hand you bust out on this hand 0% of the time if you have the raiser covered.

For these reasons i don't think you should turn down edges like these and the more I read the top tournament players saying they wouldn't do it, and they are certainly better players than me, the more I think it is an error.

I await the flaming! ( come on mystery i know you're out there ready to disagree!)

Great post.

So are you going to start calling all preflop all-ins during the early stages of tournaments with QQ from now on?

[Royal Flush]

So are you going to start calling all preflop all-ins during the early stages of tournaments with QQ from now on?

Why would you not?

I think i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i have folded QQ in an online MTT!!