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Author Topic: How do I win this hand?  (Read 2245 times)
Boba Fett
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« on: March 26, 2007, 11:30:45 PM »

Stanley £25 freezeout last thursday

Came across a hand that I had to fold, I read the player correctly but ever since Ive been thinking could I have played it any different to win the hand.

12 players left so its almost the final table bubble.  Blinds are 400/800, I have 18k chips and opponent has 21k.  He has been playing fairly tight and has just won a monster pot to get his big stack whereas I think my table image was kinda loose and aggressive picking up a lot of pots firing at flops that nobody appeared to hit but all of my hands that have went to showdown have been big hands.

The last few rounds of the table I have went quiet as we are at the stage where most of the short stacks are pushing with anything half decent so i dont want to raise and be reraised with a short stack, opponent has came to the table maybe 3 or 4 levels ago so his opinion of me might be that Im not as LAG as the other players at the table think i am.  Oh, and he;s my workmate at its the 1st time Ive ever been on the same table as him.

UTG folds and then I call with AK offsuit, its folded to him on the button and he raises to 3k, its folded to me and I call.

Flop comes rags, 9 high rainbow, I check he bets 5k, I fold.

I put him on a big-middle pair where he has his perfect flop but doesnt wanna see another card. TT or JJ probably with an outside chance he also has AK or AQ and is making the continuation bet on the flop.  During the final table break he told me he had JJ which I honestly felt was his most likely holding.

So the question is, how do I win this hand?

The other ways to play this that I was thinking about are......

Preflop:

 I could open raise it, probs to around 2400 but if he pushes Im not sure I can call for all my chips as he wouldnt do it without a massive hand.  If he re-raises (which I think he may have done) then I have to at least call but then I miss the flop and either have to take a shot at it or check fold as I did.  This brings about the same outcome as before except I have more chips committed.

or

 I limp, let him raise to 3k then re-raise/push but I think either way he calls.  If I push Ive advertised I have AK so I *think* he calls with JJ.  If I re-raise ive still pretty much advertised what I have, he gets to see the flop (which he would know I missed) and its his for the taking, the only question is how many chips would I waste even taking a stab at the pot?

On the flop:

Do I bet out?  he has an overpair to the board on a non-threatening flop.  I limp/called his raise so its unlikely Im slow playing an overpair, his only danger is against a set.  If I bet out will he raise?  Maybe, I think he would maybe go all in actually and then I cant call and Ive thrown away the chips I bet out with as well as letting everyone at the table know I will fold when someone comes over the top of my bets.

Do I check raise?  After calling the 3k pre flop Im down to around 15k and he has me covered, he bets 5k, if I raise even the minimum I have at least 13k of my 18k in there and am pot committed no matter what drawing to an Ace or a King with 2 cards to come so if I raise I think I have to go all in.  He might think about me having the set but at the end of the line I think he calls.  he might also think that if I had a set I might just call the flop and try to squeeze more out of him on the turn and river.

Do I flat call his 5k on the flop meaning I have 10k of my 18k left and the pot will sit at 17.2k and try to hit my Ace or King knowing its good if I hit but wasting 5k if I miss.  I think if I call and dont hit, the onyl card stopping him from going all in is a Q which might make him check behind me and let me see the last card for free.........but probably not.

Generally any way I can think of playing this differently I will lose more of my stack or maybe all (assuming I dont hit the turn or river), its just frustrating knowing what I have, knowing what he has and not being able to win the hand.  Is there another option out there I dont see?

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2007, 11:42:34 PM »


Just watch out for the people who are good, authoritive writers but crap poker players who give awful advice in some long old waffley but excellently written post that makes it seem better than it really is.



It's simple you either raise and 3 bet, or limp to re-raise. You gave him no decision at any point during the hand.
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[19:44:40] Oracle: WE'RE ALL GOING ON A SPANISH HOLIDAY! TRIGGS STABLES SHIT!
Boba Fett
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2007, 11:44:56 PM »


Just watch out for the people who are good, authoritive writers but crap poker players who give awful advice in some long old waffley but excellently written post that makes it seem better than it really is.



It's simple you either raise and 3 bet, or limp to re-raise. You gave him no decision at any point during the hand.

Do you think its the right move to reraise?
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2007, 11:47:01 PM »


Just watch out for the people who are good, authoritive writers but crap poker players who give awful advice in some long old waffley but excellently written post that makes it seem better than it really is.



It's simple you either raise and 3 bet, or limp to re-raise. You gave him no decision at any point during the hand.

Do you think its the right move to reraise?

Why would you limp AK 6 handed if not to re-raise?

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Boba Fett
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2007, 11:56:20 PM »

It was my intention but the player who did it was playing really tight and was the only player at the table who could bust me.  Was thinking that I had been playing well until that point and didnt wanna put all my chips on the line on a 50/50 shot.  Mainly Im looking for a short stack to find a high card and put it all in, not the big stack to raise me.

I probably did play this completely wrong.......which is why I posted here for advice
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2007, 11:59:11 PM »

didnt wanna put all my chips on the line on a 50/50 shot.

Maybe you should find a new game!

How do you know he is going to call and is going to have a PP that is lower than KK?
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Boba Fett
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 12:13:12 AM »

didnt wanna put all my chips on the line on a 50/50 shot.

Maybe you should find a new game!

How do you know he is going to call and is going to have a PP that is lower than KK?
Flushy thinks I played this hand badly, Im going to find a new game and quit poker altogether.  Thanks for your advice.  Maybe Ill take up dominoes
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 12:21:59 AM »

didnt wanna put all my chips on the line on a 50/50 shot.

Maybe you should find a new game!

How do you know he is going to call and is going to have a PP that is lower than KK?
Flushy thinks I played this hand badly, Im going to find a new game and quit poker altogether.  Thanks for your advice.  Maybe Ill take up dominoes

I think limp calling a raise is worse than limp folding to the raise, how are you going to get paid if you hit when the guy is that tight that you put him on such a small range?
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 12:31:43 AM »

You are forgetting Boba that your style of play cultivates action, you are gonna get called with Jacks in that comp, by a tight player whatever you do, 3 betting preflop would have given the player a decision and he MAY have considered the fold but i think its highly doubtful.

You got away from what could have been an expensive hand, so in this instance the wrong play worked out for you.
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 02:20:43 AM »

Boba, Flushy is being his typical self but he is right about the hand. I see very little reason for limping ak here, the only reason to do this is to limp re raise and this is probably only sensible if there is someone active behind you who is likely to raise.Flop is a simple check fold.

Also a bit of a nit pick but the title concerns me slightly "how do i win this hand" poker is not about winning every hand, alot of hands are unwinnable without taking stupid risks. You should be concentrating on maximising the chips you gain and minimising the ones you lose, while adapting to the structure and payout in the tournament.
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 09:15:40 AM »

6-handed with a medium stack on the bubble is NOT the time to be playing AK passively. Either limp to re-raise pre or stick out a large bet pre which enables you to continuation bet hard on the flop, regardless of actual flop.
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007, 03:34:05 PM »

ever seen a pro play that passive? no? ah. right then. there you are.

it's a £25 tournament. the money will all be at the top. i'm raising here and if he shoves i'm willing to go broke with this hand.
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 03:57:31 PM »

Limp calling with AK when your opponent has position throughout the hand is just not an option. I really hate limping with AK anyway but it you are going to do it you must reraise to negate ur positional disadvantage. Much better to open raise standard and if he reraises and ur that scared then that's up to you if you think he's only reraising with massive hands then fold. At least you can rule out many more of the times he is just trying to steal when you open raise, especially if he's tight. I wouldn't give up just because people are telling you you should find a new game. It's a learning curve and trust me everyone still has plenty to learn. You must always be looking to make your opponent make the decision and you should generally not be playing passively especially when OOP.
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 11:14:14 AM »

UTG folds and then I call with AK offsuit, its folded to him on the button and he raises to 3k, its folded to me and I call.

Flop comes rags, 9 high rainbow, I check he bets 5k, I fold.

During the final table break he told me he had JJ which I honestly felt was his most likely holding.

So the question is, how do I win this hand?

...... its just frustrating knowing what I have, knowing what he has and not being able to win the hand.  Is there another option out there I dont see?

Thanks

I love this.

You read him right.  Good play.  You didn't commit oo much before the flop.  Fine

The flop missed you.

You still want to win the hand.  Bad play.

The only way you'll win is by bluffing him.  Is he the sort of guy that will fall for a bluff given your preflop limp.  Could he read you for playing 9x, so you've hit 2 pair.  I doubt it.  If you'd hit the A or K you can win the hand.  Given the way you've played it , you can't.

It's not a sin.  Let him have a few chips & pinch them off him later.

Worrying too much about things like this will make you a poorer player in the long run.
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2007, 12:32:46 PM »

pre-flop with ak im raiseing personally on the bubble enough to set the shortys in, an overbet sure but then they dont have the niggling in the back of there mind if i re-raise he might pass,  on your stack issue you got 18k blinds 400-800 if you dont play you will go into the final with around 12-13k which is no good  you got to take advantage and bulid your chips here not sit back and waite you should realise that shortstacks dont want to go out if you keep putting the pressure on them they will have to call eventualy and hope you have live cards here if not you should of made enough to cover the loss anyway

as for the hand itself the only reason you should limp on the bubble with ak is to set yourself in after a raise if your going to play it slow then just pass it  if you really dont want to commit dont limp at all,  but when you limp you must be thinking of takeing someone on with the hand so when you get a raise you have to re-raise the way you played it calling the raise you can only pass on the flop and now you are a short getting shorter and shorter every round and they come round fast 6 handed

but dont take it for granted he had jj most likely he is putting the pressure on
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