A couple of hands

[SupaMonkey]

Right, i've been playing tourneys for a couple of years and i've realised that the cash game players seem to learn more quickly so i've been playing a little cash recently. Tbh, i've got 12 days to finish my thesis (for my phd) so i haven't really played that much poker but i would be interested in your thoughts on a couple of low stakes hands.

Hand #40568170-18748 at Vici (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 28/Mar/07 21:07:47
 
     Sly_90 is at seat 0 with $6.04.
     martinblank is at seat 1 with $25.
     ChaChaQueen is at seat 2 with $11.23.
     romncoke89 is at seat 3 with $23.45.
     makingthebank is at seat 4 with $19.75.
     CoolHand75 is at seat 5 with $24.50.
     ToddClark is at seat 6 with $54.89.
     leedsrounder is at seat 7 with $47.41.
     Warriordude is at seat 8 with $23.45.
     SupaMonkey is at seat 9 with $31.37.
     The button is at seat 3.
     
     makingthebank posts the small blind of $.10.
     CoolHand75 posts the big blind of $.25.

     Sly_90:  -- --
     ChaChaQueen:  -- --
     romncoke89:  -- --
     makingthebank:  -- --
     CoolHand75:  -- --
     ToddClark:  -- --
     leedsrounder:  -- --
     Warriordude:  -- --
     SupaMonkey: 

Pre-flop:
 
          ToddClark calls.   leedsrounder folds.   Warriordude
          folds.   SupaMonkey raises to $.75.   Sly_90 folds. 
          ChaChaQueen calls.   romncoke89 folds.   makingthebank
          folds.   CoolHand75 folds.   ToddClark re-raises to
          $3.35.   SupaMonkey calls.   ChaChaQueen folds.   

Flop (board: ):
 
          ToddClark checks.   SupaMonkey checks.   

Turn (board: ):
 
          ToddClark bets $3.   SupaMonkey raises to $7.50. 
          ToddClark calls.   

River (board: ):
 
          ToddClark checks.   SupaMonkey bets $10.   ToddClark
          calls.   

Showdown:
 
     SupaMonkey shows .
     SupaMonkey has : a pair of sevens.
     ToddClark shows .
     ToddClark has : a pair of queens.
         
Mateyboy did think for ages but i didn't think he could call with only a pair there, personally i thought it was a good bluff. Am i being a donk and just trying outrageous bluffs where there is no place for them?? I was a little afraid of moving in, should i have just bottled it and gone for it or strictly stood to a no set no bet situation. Pre-flop i felt i was behind, on the flop i was looking for a set and from then on i was on a bluff.

Hand #40568170-18748 Summary:
 
     $1.70 is raked from a pot of $42.80.
     ToddClark wins $41.10 with a pair of queens.



Ok, so i have finally gotten fed up and i have decided to raise every hand to $1 preflop (i have never enjoyed poker so much) unless there is significant action before me. I kid you not, i have raised about 30-40 hands to $1 preflop in a row and my stack has grown due to people constantly folding preflop. This time i have only raised to 75c to assume the betting lead and to build the pot should i get a nice flop. Surely i should get more value here, pls tell me how??? Ps. Mr brick has been calling a lot of my preflop raises cos he has position. He seems to fold when he misses though.

Hand #40568170-18879 at Vici (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 28/Mar/07 22:32:39
 
     Mr Brick is at seat 0 with $38.48.
     ChipSacUp is at seat 1 with $19.38.
     ChaChaQueen is at seat 2 with $6.09.
     romncoke89 is at seat 3 with $30.72.
     TEQUILA_ is at seat 4 with $4.22.
     sarahi 2 is at seat 5 with $17.13.
     Urucubac4 is at seat 6 with $15.25.
     tsik is at seat 7 with $13.70.
     gun please is at seat 8 with $26.19.
     SupaMonkey is at seat 9 with $53.89.
     The button is at seat 8.
     
     SupaMonkey posts the small blind of $.10.
     Mr Brick posts the big blind of $.25.

     Mr Brick:  -- --
     ChipSacUp:  -- --
     ChaChaQueen:  -- --
     romncoke89:  -- --
     TEQUILA_:  -- --
     sarahi 2:  -- --
     Urucubac4:  -- --
     tsik:  -- --
     gun please:  -- --
     SupaMonkey:   

Pre-flop:
 
          ChipSacUp folds.   ChaChaQueen folds.   romncoke89
          folds.   TEQUILA_ folds.   sarahi 2 folds.   Urucubac4
          folds.   tsik folds.   gun please folds.   SupaMonkey
          raises to $.75.   Mr Brick calls.   

Flop (board: ):
 
          SupaMonkey bets $1.   Mr Brick calls.   

Turn (board: ):
 
          SupaMonkey bets $2.50.   Mr Brick raises to $7.50. 
          SupaMonkey calls.   

River (board: As):
 
          SupaMonkey checks.   Mr Brick bets $10.   SupaMonkey
          goes all-in for $44.64.   Mr Brick folds.   SupaMonkey
          is returned $34.64 (uncalled).   

         

Hand #40568170-18879 Summary:
 
     $1.54 is raked from a pot of $38.50.
     SupaMonkey wins $36.96.

[jakally]

First hand with the sevens, I wouldn't have called the reraise PF.

The bluff on the end is $10 into a $27 pot.
Sometimes a small bluff works, cos it looks like you are trying to milk a strong hand.
But it also makes it more correct for him to call.
I'm not sure you will get too many people laying QQ in this situation at $0.15/$0.25.

Second hand, you got the best part of a buy-in  off the other guy, which is always ok.
It maybe you got the max off him, depending what he's got.

[boldie]

the first hand you only call the reraise for implied odds...you have to hit to take down this hand. The reraise already let's you know you are miles behind.

your check on the flop means you are unlikely to have the King ( in his eyes) and therefore he can consider himself to be ahead.  He leads out for 3.50 on the turn and you reraise the minimum. He'll call this because you signalled on the flop that you didn't have the King.

and then from his point of view it's all about believing whether or not you beat him on the river...he is being fairly carefull and only check calls a half pot bet..simply because he doesn't believe you are beating him as your betting doesn't suggest a hand that does. (you wouldn't have raised pre flop with a weak King so he rules that out)

I prefer to limp pre-flop with small pocket pairs btw, I never raise with them. (in cash games) they are all about implied odds for me.

Second hand. the only hand he was going to call your flush with would probably be the second nut flush..you got a fair amount off him so I wouldn't worry too much about that one.

[jakally]

I prefer to limp pre-flop with small pocket pairs btw, I never raise with them. (in cash games) they are all about implied odds for me.

This has got me thinking about how I play small pairs.

If I'm the first in the pot,  I will almost always raise normal bring in amount with small pairs.

I like to be in control of the pot, and it also means that there are a number of hands I can represent on future streets.
If I do hit a set then it can make it more difficult for other players to read it.

Not saying this is right though, and am thinking I should probably be prepared to limp in a bit more often.

[kinboshi]

I prefer to limp pre-flop with small pocket pairs btw, I never raise with them. (in cash games) they are all about implied odds for me.

This has got me thinking about how I play small pairs.

If I'm the first in the pot,  I will almost always raise normal bring in amount with small pairs.

I like to be in control of the pot, and it also means that there are a number of hands I can represent on future streets.
If I do hit a set then it can make it more difficult for other players to read it.

Not saying this is right though, and am thinking I should probably be prepared to limp in a bit more often.

In cash games I think it's important to see the flop as cheaply as possible with small and medium pairs (most of the time).  You're going to hit your set 7.5/1 of the time on the flop, so most of the time you'll be folding when the flop comes.

I tend to call pre-flop raises if there are a few in the pot, and therefore there is more of an opportunity for me to win a large pot if I do hit my set.  If there's a raise and a re-raise before me then it's more difficult as the original raiser might re-pop it and then I'll be laying down my hand with a fair bit already invested.

I'm not a fan of raising before the flop (most of the time), and prefer to do that post-flop once I've hit.  Also, I don't necessarily want to appear in control of the pot.  I'd much rather someone with TPTK, an over-pair, or two pair comes out betting, and I can call or raise where appropriate.  Let them think they're leading and controlling the hand.

Post-flop, if I miss, then most of the time I'm getting out of the way - or seeing the later streets as cheaply as possible.  On that flop I might have bet the flop as he's checked behind you.  Certainly find out if you're ahead or not (or if he thinks you're ahead or not), and it costs very little.  But I'm ready to throw it away should I face any resistance.

Oh and like the other thread about sets - I'm ignoring the threat of an over-set 99.99% of the time.

[WellChief]

First hand doesn't make too much sense, think about what you're trying to represent that you would check behind on the flop.  Also the bet on the river isn't big enough, if you put him on JJ/QQ (which is what it looked like) then you'd need to full pot it at least if you wanted a chance to make him fold.   I still think you might get looked up often though.

Second hand you probably got the maximum, I would 3-bet the turn though to build the pot up more.  In cash just bet all your big hands hard you'd be surprised how often you get paid off.

I personally raise every pair preflop (6-handed), sets are much more disguised when you hit and if called and you miss you can take down A high/K high/low flops on the flop and turn often.

[SupaMonkey]

Ok, thanks for the comments guys.


Wellchief, i had just finshed typing when you posted, so i've only changed it slightly.


In the first one i knew the guy was weak. He checked the flop and then made a weak bet on the turn. I raised it x 2.5 times. If he was only feigning weakness he would come over the top there but once he calls and then checks the river, i know he is scared but that i am beaten. I think my problem was that i was trying to make a strong looking small bet (which is more +EV) to get him out of the hand but i didn't stop to think about what hand i was trying to represent (this ties in with what wellchief just said). Obviously here i am trying to respresent a set and he must have wondered why i would build the pot on the turn and only stick in a small bet on the end. This probably led to the call and the more i think about it the more i think i shoulda shoved on the end.


I raise pairs preflop because if i limp with pairs and raise pretty much everything else, i feel that i am telegraphing my hand. I like to come in for a raise with almost every hand i decide to play in an unraised pot.


In the last one I guess i was just playing soooooo lag (at least preflop) that i thought that should have got more value out of it. I will try what you said Wellchief but if i 3 bet there surely he cannot put me on anything other than the flush.


These are just random thoughts of mine, feel free to comment.

[kinboshi]

I personally raise every pair preflop (6-handed), sets are much more disguised when you hit and if called and you miss you can take down A high/K high/low flops on the flop and turn often.

From any position?

[WellChief]

He may put you on a flush, but he probably won't fold 2 pair hands, and could also check behind on the river if you just call-check with only one pair hands like JA/JK.  The way it played out he probably had nothing, so in this case maybe you got the max.  However it is best to 3-bet the turn unless you're against a super aggressive player who will always at least pot the river when playing the turn like this.   If he has a set you need to get as much money in the pot as possible as he will not fold, and there's the risk of the board pairing on the river obviously.   If he has a flush you'll get it all in on the turn with a 3-bet most likely, if he has a small flush and you just call then another heart may fall on the river and ruin your chances of stacking him. 

Kinboshi yes I open with pairs from all positions 6-handed.  How I play post-flop will depend on number of callers/table dynamics etc.

[SupaMonkey]

Thanks wellchief. What would you raise to, he has $29 left approx.

[kinboshi]

Kinboshi yes I open with pairs from all positions 6-handed.  How I play post-flop will depend on number of callers/table dynamics etc.

I tend to mix it up.  Raise or calling - but tending towards calling so not as to invest too much pre-flop.  I get what you're saying about the value of the raise so that you can take down a pot with a continuation bet.

[WellChief]

You would have to bet at least $20 to have a chance i reckon but he'd probably call you anyways.

[totalise]

first hand you fold preflop, what happened is a product of reverse implied odds, when u call pre you think "im gonna flop a set and bust some schmuk with an overpair".. then the flop comes down and you then think you can outplay them. It pwns ur bottom line, and it is ok to fold.

second hand you played ok, his river bet is one that either calls a raise or it doesn't, so jamming makes the most sense.

[kinboshi]

first hand you fold preflop, what happened is a product of reverse implied odds, when u call pre you think "im gonna flop a set and bust some schmuk with an overpair".. then the flop comes down and you then think you can outplay them. It pwns ur bottom line, and it is ok to fold.

Out of interest, how do you eat play yours?

What would put forward as the optimum way to play small and medium pocket pairs pre-flop?

[totalise]

first hand you fold preflop, what happened is a product of reverse implied odds, when u call pre you think "im gonna flop a set and bust some schmuk with an overpair".. then the flop comes down and you then think you can outplay them. It pwns ur bottom line, and it is ok to fold.

Out of interest, how do you eat play yours?

What would put forward as the optimum way to play small and medium pocket pairs pre-flop?

its a function of how you play other hands.. but on the whole, if you are at a table (short handed) where people are set mining, you are going to make alot of money. My own personal preference is that if I have a hand i like the look of, Im gonna rerai in position, and most times just call OOP... occasionally mixing it up the other way. Being a slave to position is definately the best way to play poker.