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scotty2hatty
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« Reply #5805 on: September 03, 2012, 08:26:51 PM »

drogba would be incred signing. not so much owen, altho would score more than suarez

No way Owen scores more than Suarez.
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« Reply #5806 on: September 03, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »

drogba would be incred signing. not so much owen, altho would score more than suarez

No way Owen scores more than Suarez.

Owen wouldn't even play more games than goals Suarez will score. He might be is a prick but he's a class player, everyone couldn't stop raving about him before all the racism stuff. Com how much people get slated when going through bad form.
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« Reply #5807 on: September 03, 2012, 08:50:58 PM »


Surreal.
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« Reply #5808 on: September 03, 2012, 09:09:40 PM »

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-31751424/
 
Liverpool FC manager Brendan Rodgers insists he wasn’t misled over Clint Dempsey
 by David Prentice, Liverpool Echo
 Sep 3 2012
 
BRENDAN RODGERS insists he was not misled by Liverpool FC’s owners over the club’s failed bid to land Clint Dempsey on Friday.
 
But he also admitted that all parties could learn from a situation which has left the Reds severely short of firepower until the transfer window reopens again in January.
 
Speaking after Arsenal’s 2-0 win consigned the Reds to their worst start to a season for 50 years, the Reds boss declared: “It’s a learning process for the owners as well. They’ve come in here and invested way over £100-odd million into the club and made the change for whatever reason.
 
“One of the most iconic figures in the club has left – and the door will always be open for someone like Kenny – but they made the change and they made a commitment, a big commitment, to have me here for the longer term.
 
“I have a group of people who I work well with and the owners have been very up front and honest with me. I have no problem with that.
 
“Obviously there’s one or two things I have to iron out – absolutely no question
– but I have to say the owners have been very honest and they certainly haven’t misled me in any way whatsoever.
 
“There’s just one or two operational things that we need to organise and if we do that it will certainly help us in the next window and the next window after that.
 
“I’ve spoken to the people back in America, laid out my thoughts, had a couple of brief conversations and we move on. We’ll reflect on it again next week, then hopefully go forward in the January window.
Although the reality is there’s not as lot done in the January window anyway.
 
“Certainly we need help because we’ve got as very small squad and we have a maximum of 27 games, a minimum 25 games with the group that we have, which is a young group.
 
“So we certainly need reinforcements.”

Sounds pissed.
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« Reply #5809 on: September 10, 2012, 03:10:23 PM »

Long, but an interesting read for some:

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/tomkins-age-of-transfer-success

In his latest article for Liverpoolfc.com, columnist Paul Tomkins provides an in-depth look at the best – and worst – value-for-money Liverpool transfers in the Barclays Premier League era.

The notion that players aged between 20 and 22 make the ideal signings has gathered weight in recent times. Anyone younger may just be a flash in the pan, while older players tend to command bigger wages (because they're used to being paid well) and have a diminishing sell-on value.

In June, with this in mind, I thought it would be a good time to look back at Liverpool's Premier League signings - over 100 deals - to see how closely value for money related to age. Before I go any further, I'd like to point out that there are always exceptions to any given rule, and that it's up to the individuals involved in such decisions to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision.

We can all think of great young buys and rubbish older purchases, just as we can all think of rubbish young buys and great older purchases. But what's the general trend? Does the theory about buying players aged between 20 and 22 hold true?

My starting point was Graeme Riley's incredible Transfer Price Index database, and also some of the work I'd done filtering the results in 2010 for the book we co-authored (along with Gary Fulcher), "Pay As You Play: The True Price of Success in the Premier League Era".

First of all, for a basic overview, I split the transfers into five age groups: under 20, 20-22, 23-26, 27-28 and 29 and over. In the under 20s, I excluded the really young signings made for the youth team who never went on to start a league game (all clubs make loads of these types of signings, and precious few pay off; however, the ones that do tend to make it all worthwhile).

Due to the study spanning the entire Premier League period, TPI inflation simply had to be used; comparing fees from 1993, 2002 and 2011 are pointless without taking inflation into account, and it should be clear to anyone that football inflation is radically different to 'everyday' inflation - although it is calculated in a similar way. Instead of working out the value of a basket of shopping, our inflation method measures the changing price of footballers.

(TPI inflation is calculated by finding the average transfer fee in any given season. For example, the average transfer fee in 2004-05 was £2m; in more recent times it's been £5m. So a £20m player in 2004 would have cost ten times the annual average; a £20m player in 2009 would have only been four times the average. When this is converted into a "current day purchase price" (CTPP), the £20m paid 2004 becomes £50m in 2009.)

The reason we came up with the Transfer Price Index system was to compare purchasing across eras. In 2009, £5m was the average fee paid. A mere 15 years earlier, it was the record fee paid. The average price of a transfer in 1992-93 was roughly £500,000. It was 10 times that amount within 16 years. These are all within the "Premier League era".

The point of all this is that whereas Paul Stewart, for example, cost £2.3m in 1992, his CTPP works out at £15.3m. Djibril Cissé and Emile Heskey, both at prices circa £33m, cost only a fraction less than Andy Carroll.

When all prices are converted to CTPP, be they from 1992 or 2011, they can be viewed on the same terms (and as such, all fees quoted herein are CTPP). This paints a picture of the financial side; but how do you objectively assess how good the players actually were in the red of Liverpool?

One clear sign of success as a transfer is the player starting a large number league games. As the database records every league start, these can be looked at as markers of achievement; bad players don't play a lot of games for a club like Liverpool. It doesn't mean that someone who makes 200 appearances is brilliant - sometimes steady Eddies provide that type of value. (Example: John Arne Riise.)

It's only fair to say that some of the age groups have only a handful of players, which makes the sample size small. The numbers, for qualifying transfers up to 2011, were as follows: nine U20s; 23 20-22s; 41 23-26s; 16 aged 27 and 28; and 15 aged 29 or over.

The age group that makes the highest number of starts, on average during the players' time at Liverpool FC, is the fabled 20-22 range, at 63.4. The 23-26 group follows closely thereafter, at 59.7, and a little way behind them come the 27/28 year olds, on 45.3. Then there's a big drop to the 29+ group - who obviously have a short shelf life anyway - at 20.3.

As if to prove that players below 20 can be very hit and miss (and indeed, more miss than hit in Liverpool's case), the 16-19 range only made 16.7 starts on average.

On average, the 29+ age group were the cheapest, at £2.3m, just behind the teenagers, at £3m. But none of the other three groups average out below £8m; proving that players in their 20s obviously cost a lot more money.

The most expensive group is the one aged 20-22 - prime targets - but despite costing on average roughly £3m more than the 23-26 and 27-28 groups, they perform better than both when it comes to limiting CTPP loss. In other words, they provide a sell-on value that more than makes up for the high initial fee. Xabi Alonso cost £24m in today's money, played five seasons for the club, then was sold for £38.6m, as a 27-year-old.

(Due to inflation, it's actually very hard to make a CTPP profit; if you buy at £5m, but sell at £8m - a profit it normal terms - you have made a CTPP loss if the average fee at the time of sale has risen to £10m; and football inflation almost always rises. Therefore, while individual deals make CTPP profits - Fernando Torres, as the most successful Liverpool example - the averages of all five groups result in a CTPP loss; but it's the nature of that loss that is telling. All members of the TPI project accept that clubs work differently in terms of accounting, and the amortization of players' values, but this is designed as an indication of performance in relation to the original transfer fee. We also accept that free transfers - which might be costly on big wages - can skew the results a little, but these still comprise a small percentage of overall trading.)

In terms of Liverpool's Premier League dealings, the CTPP loss for the teenagers is just £92,843. For the 29+ bracket, it's only £1.7m, given that relatively small fees tend to be paid to start with. Mid-ranked of the five groups is '20-22', at £3.7m. The second worst group is the 23-26, at an average £4.3m loss per deal. But the worst - and, for me, the moral of this entire story - are the 27- and 28-year olds, at £4.6m. As I noted in Pay As You Play, the average fee for a footballer drops sharply after the age of 28; clubs can sense a 30-something looming.

Occasionally it might make sense - United won titles thanks to the contributions of Dwight Yorke and Dimitar Berbatov (despite losing fortunes in sell-on value) - but the law of averages warns against it. After all, when Chelsea bought the imperious Andrei Shevchenko for what amounts to over £60m in today's money, at the age of 30, who thought he would perform so badly?

How Good?

The one subjective measure I included as an additional "bit of fun" (but hopefully with some value in the result), was a rating for all of the players out of 10, based on how well I thought they had done in a red shirt. I tried not to be too heavily swayed by the price-tag, but also took it into account to some degree.

It was only when I took the averages for each age range that some interesting results leapt out: yet again, 20-22 was the star bracket (containing the likes of Reina, Agger, Lucas, Alonso), with a mark out of 10 of 7.0; well above the overall average mark of 6.1. It's one thing having a healthy sell-on value, but on the whole, players of this age played well. (Of course, the likes of Diao and Cissé proved costly mistakes.)

[Since this piece was originally written for my website, Joe Allen has arrived aged 22, and looked every inch a star.]

Next came the 23-26 year olds - buoyed by the inclusion of Torres, Hyypia and Hamann, but weighed down by Diomede, Dundee, Josemi and Cheyrou - with 6.2; slightly above average overall, but unremarkable. The worst two categories were the extremes: over 29s and under 20s, at 5.4 and 5.6 respectively. With teenagers you don't always know what you're getting, and with over 29s a decline is often already in motion.

That leaves one category. Dead-on average, at 6.1, were the 27-28 year olds.

Transfer Price Index Coefficient v.2.0

Last year, as an addition to this overall project, I created TPIC - the Transfer Price Index Coefficient. The aim was to judge the best and worst transfers during the Premier League era (not that football began then, but because our data only stretched that far), based on the number of games played, the fee paid, the fee recouped and the number of games started.

For TPIC, free transfers were excluded, and the date-range was limited to 1994-2011. So the data used is a little different to that used in the first section of this article. On top of that, in a further filtering of results, I created a version removing all players still at their respective clubs, given that their data following the move is not definitive (with games still to be played, and/or transfer fees to be recouped). That left around 1,500 deals.

To create a simple coefficient, I decided to multiply the number of games played by 100,000, to bring the number into the millions, so that the CTPP loss or profit - also likely to be in the millions - could be brought onto a similar level, for addition or subtraction. This seemed like a neat way of doing things.

(It was only then that it occurred to me that for Pay As You Play I'd calculated the average cost - in relation to transfer fee - of a Premier League start. It worked out at £54,541 per selection in the XI. However, when applying TPI inflation, the 2010 figure was virtually £100,000. As the average of every game started is £100,000, then each start gets rewarded with £100,000.)

So, the new coefficient was basically the average number of games started by each age group, multiplied by 100,000, plus (or minus) the CTPP profit (or loss). The higher the remaining number, the better value the age group. With the data set so much larger than that of just Liverpool, a more accurate picture should emerge; but on top of that, it provides something to compare the Reds' business against.

To start with I'll look at all ages - 16 subsets, with only those under 19 and also those over 32 grouped together. After this I'll cluster them into just five bands - the ones used at the start of this piece.

As you can see, 21 is the best-value age, and 29 is the worst. For some reason 26 is worse than 27, but otherwise there's a clear downward trend between 21 and 29, and then a rise in value for money at 30+. The ages of 25 to 32 remain below the overall average, but nominal fees paid for those aged over 32 can often result in a couple of worthwhile seasons; although obviously this is the one area where goalkeepers are only entering their peak years, and doubtless skew the figures somewhat (paying fees for outfield players aged 33 or higher is practically unheard of).

Best Players - All clubs

The best Premier League signing according to my TPIC calculations is Cristiano Ronaldo. He was signed aged 18, for £31.5m in today's money, but started a healthy 157 games before being sold for £102.8m CTPP. Nicolas Anelka ranks second, with a purchase fee of just £1.7m and, after 50 starts, a sale figure of £68.7m. Indeed, Arsenal fill spaces two-to-five, with Anelka, Overmars, Vieira and Toure. The average age of the top ten is just 21.

Liverpool's top-ranking TPIC transfer is Fernando Torres, who made the club a £22m CTPP profit after 91 starts. Next is Xabi Alonso, at 19th overall, followed by Sami Hyypia, in 26th.

The worst TPIC transfer is the aforementioned Shevchenko, who only started 30 games after what still remains the biggest TPI fee (in terms of Premier League purchasing), and left for free. Liverpool's worst transfer in these terms remains Djibril Cissé, who cost £33m CTPP, and left for just £8.7m after a mere 29 starts; leading to him ranking 14th from the bottom across almost 1,500 deals. Emile Heskey's purchase and sale CTPPs are almost identical to Cissé's, but he started 118 games; even so, he's still in the bottom 40. Both were the perfect age; they just weren't quite the perfect talent.

Conclusion

And so, as noted earlier, there will always be exceptions to any given rule.

One of Liverpool's best signings of the past 20 years - Gary McAllister - was 35 when he signed. But he's the only definite success out of 16 singings aged 29 or over. Add the eight signings aged 28-29, to make a pool of 24 incoming players between 1994 and 2011, and the outright success tally still resided at just one, and even then, he's remembered for a golden two months.
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« Reply #5810 on: September 11, 2012, 10:30:24 PM »

One more step along the road tomorrow,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19555996
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« Reply #5811 on: September 12, 2012, 10:37:30 AM »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730
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« Reply #5812 on: September 12, 2012, 01:32:02 PM »

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/61214/pm_draft_commons_statement_on_hillsborough_.html

I recommend everyone reads that.
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« Reply #5813 on: September 12, 2012, 01:47:52 PM »

"The disaster at the Hillsborough football stadium on 15th April 1989 was one of the greatest peacetime tragedies of the last century.

96 people died as a result of a crush in the Leppings Lane Terrace at the FA Cup Semi-Final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

There was a public Inquiry at the time by Lord Justice Taylor which found – and I quote – that the main cause of the disaster was “a failure of police control.”

But the Inquiry didn’t have access to all the documents that have since become available…

…it didn’t properly examine the response of the emergency services …

…it was followed by a deeply controversial inquest…

…and by a media version of events that sought to blame the fans.

As a result, the families have not heard the truth and have not found justice.

That is why the previous government – and in particular – the Rt Hon Member for Leigh was right to set up this Panel.

And it is why this government insisted that no stone should be left unturned and that all papers should be made available to the Bishop of Liverpool and his team.

Mr Speaker, in total over 450,000 pages of evidence have been reviewed.

It was right that the families should see the Report first.

As a result the government has only had a very limited amount of time to study the evidence so far.

But it is already very clear that many of the report’s findings are deeply distressing.

There are three areas in particular.

The failure of the authorities to help protect people.

The attempt to blame the fans.

And the doubt cast on the original Coroner’s Inquest.

Let me take each in turn.

FINDINGS: FAILURE OF THE AUTHORITIES

First, there is new evidence about how the authorities failed.

There is a trail of new documents which show the extent to which the safety of the crowd at Hillsborough was “compromised at every level.”

The ground failed to meet minimum standards and the “deficiencies were well known”.

The turnstiles were inadequate.

The ground capacity had been significantly over-calculated.

The crush barriers failed to meet safety standards.

There had been a crush at exactly the same match the year before.

And today’s report shows clearly that lessons had not been learnt.

The report backs up again the key finding of the Taylor Report on police failure.

But it goes further by revealing for the first time the shortcomings of the ambulance and emergency services response.

The major incident plan was not fully implemented.

Rescue attempts were held back by failures of leadership and co-ordination.

And, significantly, new documents today show there was a delay from the emergency services when people were being crushed and killed.

FINDINGS: ATTEMPT TO BLAME THE FANS

Second, the families have long believed that some of the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust account of events that sought to blame the fans for what happened.

Mr Speaker, the families were right.

The evidence in today’s report includes briefings to the media…

…and attempts by the Police to change the record of events.

On the media. Several newspapers reported false allegations that fans were drunk and violent and stole from the dead.

The Sun’s report sensationalised these allegations under a banner headline “The Truth.”

This was clearly wrong and caused huge offence, distress and hurt.

News International has co-operated with the Panel and, for the first time, today’s report reveals that the source for these despicable untruths was a Sheffield news agency reporting conversations with South Yorkshire Police and Irvine Patnick, the then MP for Sheffield Hallam.

The Report finds that this was part of police efforts – and I quote - “to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on…allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.”

In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor’s attention.

Today’s Report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended – and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation - including its lack of leadership.

The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths.

There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died …

…in an attempt – and I quote from the report - “to impugn the reputations of the deceased.”
 
The Coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children.

The Panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an “exceptional” decision.

The report states clearly that the attempt of the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and late arrival was “fundamentally flawed”.

And that alcohol consumption was “unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion”.

Mr Speaker, over all these years questions have been raised about the role of the government – including whether it did enough to uncover the truth.

It is certainly true that some of the language in the government papers published today was insensitive.

But having been through every document – and every government document including Cabinet Minutes will be published - the Panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth.

At the time of the Taylor Report the then Prime Minister was briefed by her private secretary that the defensive and – I quote - “close to deceitful” behaviour of senior South Yorkshire officers was “depressingly familiar.”

And it is clear that the then government thought it right that the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire should resign.

But as the Rt Hon Member for Leigh has rightly highlighted, governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans.

FINDINGS: ORIGINAL CORONER’S INQUEST

Third, and perhaps most significantly of all, the Bishop of Liverpool’s report presents new evidence which casts significant doubt over the adequacy of the original Inquest.

The Coroner - on the advice of pathologists - believed that victims suffered traumatic asphyxia leading to unconsciousness within seconds and death within a few minutes.

As a result he asserted that beyond 3.15pm there were no actions that could have changed the fate of the victims and he limited the scope of the Inquest accordingly.

But by analysing post mortem reports the Panel have found that 28 did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 had evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush.

This means that individuals in those groups could have had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm…

…in contrast to the findings of the Coroner and a subsequent Judicial Review.

And the Panel states clearly that “it is highly likely that what happened to those individuals after 3.15pm was significant” in determining whether they died.

RESPONSE

Mr Speaker, the conclusions of this report will be harrowing for many of the families affected.

Anyone who has lost a child knows the pain never leaves you.

But to read a report years afterwards that says – and I quote…

…“a swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”…

…can only add to the pain

It is for the Attorney General to decide whether to apply to the High Court to quash the original inquest and seek a new one.

In this capacity he acts independently of government. And he will need to examine the evidence himself.

But it is clear to me that the new evidence in today’s report raises vital questions which must be examined.

And the Attorney General has assured me that he will examine this new evidence immediately and reach a decision as fast as possible.

But ultimately it is for the High Court to decide.

It is also right that the House should have an opportunity to debate the issues raised in this report fully.

My Rt Hon Friend the Home Secretary will be taking forward a debate in Government time. And this will happen when the House returns in October.

APOLOGY

Mr Speaker, I want to be very clear about the view the government takes about these findings…

…and why after 23 years this matters so much, not just for the families but for Liverpool and for our country as a whole.

Mr Speaker what happened that day – and since – was wrong.

It was wrong that the responsible authorities knew Hillsborough did not meet minimum safety standards and yet still allowed the match to go ahead.

It was wrong that the families have had to wait for so long – and fight so hard – just to get to the truth.

And it was wrong that the police changed the records of what happened and tried to blame the fans.

We ask the police to do difficult and often very dangerous things on our behalf.

And South Yorkshire Police is a very different organisation today from what it was then.

But we do the many, many honourable police men and women a great disservice…

…if we try to defend the indefensible.

It was also wrong that neither Lord Justice Taylor nor the Coroner looked properly at the response of the other emergency services.

Again, these are dedicated people who do extraordinary things to serve the public.

But the evidence from today’s report makes very difficult reading.

Mr Speaker, with the weight of the new evidence in this Report, it is right for me today as Prime Minister to make a proper apology to the families of the 96 for all they have suffered over the past 23 years.

Indeed, the new evidence that we are presented with today makes clear that these families have suffered a double injustice.

The injustice of the appalling events - the failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth.

And the injustice of the denigration of the deceased – that they were somehow at fault for their own deaths.

On behalf of the Government – and indeed our country – I am profoundly sorry for this double injustice that has been left uncorrected for so long.

WHY THIS MATTERS FOR MERSEYSIDE AND THE COUNTRY

Mr Speaker, because of what I have described as the second injustice – the false version of events - not enough people in this country understand what the people of Merseyside have been through.

This appalling death toll of so many loved ones lost…

…was compounded by an attempt to blame the victims.

A narrative about hooliganism on that day was created …

…which led many in the country to accept that it was somehow a grey area.

Today’s report is black and white.

The Liverpool fans “were not the cause of the disaster”.

The Panel has quite simply found “no evidence” in support of allegations of “exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans”….

….”no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium”…

….and “no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying.”

Mr Speaker, I’m sure the whole House will want to thank the Bishop of Liverpool and his Panel for all the work they have done.

And I am sure that all sides will join with me in paying tribute to the incredible strength and dignity of the Hillsborough families and the community which has backed them in their long search for justice.

While nothing can ever bring back those who have been lost…

…with all the documents revealed

…and nothing held back…

…the families, at last, have access to the truth

And I commend this Statement to the House."
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« Reply #5814 on: September 12, 2012, 02:19:51 PM »

the facts are worse then most of us assumed. I feel so bad for the families who loved ones were tarnished by the police lies.

Distressing is the huge payoffs the police got who retired early and because of the stress of Hillsborough, now we know it was from guilt. How can they live with themselves and how they contributed to the killings of all those fans.

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« Reply #5815 on: September 12, 2012, 02:45:16 PM »

Full report:
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf
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« Reply #5816 on: September 12, 2012, 06:17:40 PM »

Shocking & sickening.
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« Reply #5817 on: September 12, 2012, 08:07:05 PM »

Been in Liverpool today, listen to 5live all day on the way up and down.

Nothing to add to what's been said really already by others, other than a personal and just utter amazement to the scale that has been revealed today by the panel of the extent of the cover up.

Glad it's out now, I'm hopeful now for everyone to finally now understand what happened.

Now the path to fight for the justice they so deserve is clear



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« Reply #5818 on: September 12, 2012, 09:33:31 PM »

http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/04/a-doctor-at-hillsborough-by-neil-dunkin-2/

Dr Glyn Phillips. Heard his interview with Alan Green from Hillsborough from that fateful day, and he was on the radio again today.

A remarkable man, and another one of the innocent fans who have been so badly tainted by the lies from the police, the FA, the coroner, the politicians, the s*n, and everyone else involved in the disgusting cover-up that a QC today said is the biggest in British legal history.

I read that article with tears in my eyes.  Been doing that a lot today.
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« Reply #5819 on: September 12, 2012, 09:49:49 PM »

http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/04/a-doctor-at-hillsborough-by-neil-dunkin-2/

Dr Glyn Phillips. Heard his interview with Alan Green from Hillsborough from that fateful day, and he was on the radio again today.

A remarkable man, and another one of the innocent fans who have been so badly tainted by the lies from the police, the FA, the coroner, the politicians, the s*n, and everyone else involved in the disgusting cover-up that a QC today said is the biggest in British legal history.

I read that article with tears in my eyes.  Been doing that a lot today.
Their's too many involved in this for it to be a coincidence, has their been any talk of Freemason involvement?
Lets hope the Families get what they want and this is just the begining of the Justice.
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