Was She right to push?

[ifm]

If he had pushed from UTG with 18 BB's that would just have been a stupid move, nothing more nothing less. yes he might have picked up the blinds here...but he would also have scared off any weaker holdings and KK/AA is laughing at you when you do and quite rightly so and then you're cursing at yourself for not even giving yourself the option to get out of the hand. even a big stack at the table would say "well, I've got JJ but I'll take that race now, thanks".

Honestly i never read the whole post, i just assume you fold............
The part i highlight though is probably the (i'll be polite) strangest thing i have seen in , the fact is you need to push, everyone does with a HUGE range of hands at times otherwise you blind out.
We don't all get aces every hand unfortunately and so we don't always have the luxury of pushing with aces. Maybe pushing UTG with this hand isn't to your taste or anyone elses, i just said that's what i would do in this spot.

Well to be honest that is utter insanity and flies in the face of any sort of basic poker thinking.

If we just go back to basics for a minute.

There are two things we want to happen when we make any raise

1) A worse hand to call
2) A better hand to fold

If the blinds are 600/1200 and I move all in for 21,000 UTG there is no way a hand worse than AK will call unless you are up against fellow maniacs.

You are only going to get action from the monster hands that have you in big trouble such as KK or AA.

So basically this move has two possible outcomes

1) you risk all your chips to pick up the blinds (bear in mind you are the Big blind next hand anyway! so a fat lot of good that has done you)
2) You race for all your chips against a better hand.

Why would any serious poker player be happy with either of those scenarios

So you obviously MUST fold your hand every single time you get reraised?
Folks pick up on stuff like that.
The beauty of AK is that very few people can fold it, i can but in this position i use it to either have the race or to win the blinds.
I am talking about this specific situation BTW, i don't mind a race, it happens all the time.

EDIT: i may not be making this clear, if you are going to fold to a reraise then ok fine, the raise is a bit low for me but ok.
If you are looking to play this hand then a push UTG is also fine because you can still avoid a race.

[johnbhoy76]

[/quote]

I am talking about this specific situation BTW,
[/quote]

So am I.

and the situation is: Blinds 600/1200 you have 21,000 chips UTG at a full table.

You look down at AK

What do you do?

As I said I think moving all in here is madness.

You could limp for 1200 and hope that a short stack will push with Ace rag.
You could limp and then come right over the top of anyone who raises.
You could make a standard opening raise (which is just as likely to win the blinds as the all-in anyway IMHO)

In fact apart from folding I think moving all-in is probably the worst play possible in this situation

[ifm]

I am talking about this specific situation BTW,
[/quote]

So am I.

and the situation is: Blinds 600/1200 you have 21,000 chips UTG at a full table.
[/quote]

I meant 16 left, 7 paid.

You look down at AK

What do you do?

As I said I think moving all in here is madness.

You could limp for 1200 and hope that a short stack will push with Ace rag.
You could limp and then come right over the top of anyone who raises.
You could make a standard opening raise (which is just as likely to win the blinds as the all-in anyway IMHO)

In fact apart from folding I think moving all-in is probably the worst play possible in this situation

I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense but i don't play that way.
A standard raise (which is 3,600) is nearly a fifth of your stack (20k btw), you have to fold to the reraise (by everyones reckoning) so you could be just wasting chips.
If you are prepared to call an allin you may aswell just push first, this way you can discourage the 77 allin race or you can take on the race.
If you don't want to play this hand for all your chips (in this specific situation) then raise, limp fold as you wish.

[johnbhoy76]

I am talking about this specific situation BTW,

So am I.

and the situation is: Blinds 600/1200 you have 21,000 chips UTG at a full table.
[/quote]

I meant 16 left, 7 paid.

You look down at AK

What do you do?

As I said I think moving all in here is madness.

You could limp for 1200 and hope that a short stack will push with Ace rag.
You could limp and then come right over the top of anyone who raises.
You could make a standard opening raise (which is just as likely to win the blinds as the all-in anyway IMHO)

In fact apart from folding I think moving all-in is probably the worst play possible in this situation

I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense but i don't play that way.
A standard raise (which is 3,600) is nearly a fifth of your stack (20k btw), you have to fold to the reraise (by everyones reckoning) so you could be just wasting chips.
If you are prepared to call an allin you may aswell just push first, this way you can discourage the 77 allin race or you can take on the race.
If you don't want to play this hand for all your chips (in this specific situation) then raise, limp fold as you wish.
[/quote]

But once someone pushed in or raises it up it becomes a completely independant &  seperate situation which now has to be looked at on it's own merits. You are making your all in move with no information as to what cards all the other players may have.

So if I limp for 1200

and a short stack pushes all in for 10,000 and it gets folded around to me I now have a new scenario to deal with.

13,000 in the pot and 8,800 to call (that would leave me with 11,000)

Wether or not you call here is down to what range of hands you put the guy on, pot odds etc... BUT it is a totally seperate decision from the decision you faced at the very start of the hand.

To me this is what playing poker is about and I enjoy making these decisions and thinking about these scenarios and I would rather have this decision on my plate than to simply chuck all my chips in pre-flop and hope for the best.

[boldie]

I am talking about this specific situation BTW,

So am I.

and the situation is: Blinds 600/1200 you have 21,000 chips UTG at a full table.

I meant 16 left, 7 paid.

You look down at AK

What do you do?

As I said I think moving all in here is madness.

You could limp for 1200 and hope that a short stack will push with Ace rag.
You could limp and then come right over the top of anyone who raises.
You could make a standard opening raise (which is just as likely to win the blinds as the all-in anyway IMHO)

In fact apart from folding I think moving all-in is probably the worst play possible in this situation

I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense but i don't play that way.
A standard raise (which is 3,600) is nearly a fifth of your stack (20k btw), you have to fold to the reraise (by everyones reckoning) so you could be just wasting chips.
If you are prepared to call an allin you may aswell just push first, this way you can discourage the 77 allin race or you can take on the race.
If you don't want to play this hand for all your chips (in this specific situation) then raise, limp fold as you wish.
[/quote]

But once someone pushed in or raises it up it becomes a completely independant &  seperate situation which now has to be looked at on it's own merits. You are making your all in move with no information as to what cards all the other players may have.

So if I limp for 1200

and a short stack pushes all in for 10,000 and it gets folded around to me I now have a new scenario to deal with.

13,000 in the pot and 8,800 to call (that would leave me with 11,000)

Wether or not you call here is down to what range of hands you put the guy on, pot odds etc... BUT it is a totally seperate decision from the decision you faced at the very start of the hand.

To me this is what playing poker is about and I enjoy making these decisions and thinking about these scenarios and I would rather have this decision on my plate than to simply chuck all my chips in pre-flop and hope for the best.






[/quote]

good post..this was my point exactly...I just didn't word it as clearly me thinks

[AlexMartin]

Good push, weak call. But id have done the same, does the make sense?

[JungleCat03]

6-7 BBs i would shove. 8-10 or so, I'd often raise just under half my stack and probably shove any flop.

18 BBs is a bit much to push utg i feel. You obviously generate loads of folding equity but make it hard for other players to make a mistake as you telegraph your hand somewhat.

The limp reraise is a good move, especially if there is a limper's tax sheriff lurking around. If  someone pushes allin after you've limped, I would call or fold depending on who did the pushing and how much overlay is in the pot from any other limpers etc.

[Royal Flush]

You could make a standard opening raise (which is just as likely to win the blinds as the all-in anyway IMHO)

Madness, raising less the chances that you get action go up massively.

Limp re-raising is an avenue but i would need some reason to do this, a very active player or a knowledgeable player with a short stack in the blinds.

The idea with raising less as opposed to pushing is to get inferior hands involved. This will happen one of 2 ways, they call your raise and you play a flop with the initiative this is clearly a nice situation, however the best result is when you get an inferior hand to re-raise, then you really start making money!

I am not raising AK to pass here, that would be stupid.