Why would you do that?

[suzanne]

Last weekend after getting knocked out of the ladies comp I decided to play the £15 freezeout. Not being a regular live player I dont really know the etiquette and sometimes wonder if it is obvious that I am an internet player and maybe I am doing things I shouldn't.

Example 1

The game has not long started and im in BB with KK, 5 or 6 limpers round the table and I raise it up to 200 (first question - was this too weak a raise). One of the limpers, a VERY big VERY drunk guy says "Why would you do that? Why not just let us see the flop. I turn a bright shade of pink and say because I have a hand. He mumbles and moans for a bit and calls along with 1 other. Flop comes down Ace high....s**t.... so I put in a bet of 600 (again I think maybe too weak) and he says is that it!! and raised me up to 2k. 2 choices now allin or fold so I folded. He probably didnt have the ace but i couldnt risk it so early on in the game. So the question is..is it wrong when playing live to raise preflop early in the game or was this guy just a windup merchant?

Example 2

After being put in my place I was basically blinding away, winning a few small pots but nothing substantial. I get moved to another table but by that time I have about 10 BB and im thinking I need to push but im absolutely card dead. 2 rounds of the table and still nothing. Im on BB and a young lad UTG puts me allin which I fold to and then say to him im going allin blind on your BB (jokingly), so im chatting away to him and have still not looked at my cards when a voice from the other end of the table says "did you mean what you said about going allin blind?" I thought about it for a minute and then said yeah go on then. This chap was fairly short stacked but he had more than me so in the chips go...he turned over AQ and I had AK wooohoooo. He laughed when he saw my cards and said gh :-)

After that I had a good run of cards and built up quite a nice stack but matey boy wasnt fairing so well. So im on BB and someone in mid position raises me up, matey boy goes allin, a quick chip count and im thinking its a value bet as im already in the pot and say to the guy "since its you..ok". What I actually meant was if I lose I would rather give the chips to him but he took it totally the wrong way. "What do you mean..since its me. Why would you do that ?" "Im going to double you up I say turning a bright shade of pink AGAIN. So cards are on there backs, mid raiser has 88, matey boy has A9 and I have QJs and yes you have guessed it..a Jack on the river saw him packing. This guy was absolutely furious and I felt like a complete and utter s**t but I played the hand as I would have online, it was a value bet but I was left feeling sooooo bad and wondered if maybe you are not supposed to do that sort of thing live? It kinda put a dampener on the whole game for me but I am sure he must have been delighted to know I went out 17th paying out at 15.

So did I do anything wrong?

I also learnt that you are not supposed to take the cards off the table which nobody had told me before 

[technolog]

I'm not a very experienced live player (or online for that matter) but it doesn't appear that you put a foot wrong apart from having the misfortune to share tables with a couple of k**bs!

[LeKnave]

I take it blinds were 25/50 in the first hand?  If so i would be inclined to make it 300-350 rather then 200 preflop.  With 5/6 limpers it is important to get the pot HU or 3 handed and a 200 chip raise is unlikely to achieve that.

But i agree with your play on the flop.  You have to c-bet it, and then when he r/r's i wouldn't want to commit my tournament life with just KK in this spot so early.

[totalise]

The game has not long started and im in BB with KK, 5 or 6 limpers round the table and I raise it up to 200 (first question - was this too weak a raise).

what are the blinds?

2 choices now allin or fold

why do you think these are your 2 choices?

[tikay]

Interesting Post Suzanne. Ignore the mouths, play YOUR game, YOUR way!

The difference between Live & Online play is massive, but it's taken for granted that the transition is easy. It's NOT

I've done several "Online to Live" "teach-ins" (not game play, just etiquette & procedures), the latest being on Saturday at The Broadway. It is astonishing when Online players play their first Live Game, it's so different. Persevere.

In the 2005 Deauville EPT, I spent 2 days on the same table as Elk. He's won zillions online, but he was a completely out of his depth "live", he Passed out of turn repeatedly, & had not the faintest idea why it was wrong.

One of these days, some bright spark is gonna start doing "Online to Live" Lessons. Hmm.....

PS - Oh, & no, do NOT remove your cards from the table. It sets you out as an Internet player, & inexperienced, straight away. Handsome is as handsome does. Handle yourself, your cards, & your chips properly, & you look the part then.

[AlexMartin]

I take it blinds were 25/50 in the first hand?  If so i would be inclined to make it 300-350 rather then 200 preflop.  With 5/6 limpers it is important to get the pot HU or 3 handed and a 200 chip raise is unlikely to achieve that.

But i agree with your play on the flop.  You have to c-bet it, and then when he r/r's i wouldn't want to commit my tournament life with just KK in this spot so early.

lol, you dont like flops then

[tikay]

I take it blinds were 25/50 in the first hand?  If so i would be inclined to make it 300-350 rather then 200 preflop.  With 5/6 limpers it is important to get the pot HU or 3 handed and a 200 chip raise is unlikely to achieve that.

But i agree with your play on the flop.  You have to c-bet it, and then when he r/r's i wouldn't want to commit my tournament life with just KK in this spot so early.

lol, you dont like flops then

At 25-50, 200 is plenty. It makes no mathermatical sense to bet more. In the first level of a comp, watch for those who, first to bet, make it 500 at 25-50. Mark them down as easy meat.

[LeKnave]

I take it blinds were 25/50 in the first hand?  If so i would be inclined to make it 300-350 rather then 200 preflop.  With 5/6 limpers it is important to get the pot HU or 3 handed and a 200 chip raise is unlikely to achieve that.

But i agree with your play on the flop.  You have to c-bet it, and then when he r/r's i wouldn't want to commit my tournament life with just KK in this spot so early.

lol, you dont like flops then

At 25-50, 200 is plenty. It makes no mathermatical sense to bet more. In the first level of a comp, watch for those who, first to bet, make it 500 at 25-50. Mark them down as easy meat.

With 5/6 limpers i disagree.  Making it 200 you will be going to the flop 6/7 way, not a situation i want to be in with KK tbh.

[totalise]

tony,

what is the basis of your mathematical sense? I mean, the core of math is to price people out, and making it 200 at 25/50 blinds with KK prices them in, given the amount of limpers, with enormous implied odds, so I cant see any reason why it is illogical to bet more.. in fact its probably illogical to bet this small.

[tikay]

tony,

what is the basis of your mathematical sense? I mean, the core of math is to price people out, and making it 200 at 25/50 blinds with KK prices them in, given the amount of limpers, with enormous implied odds, so I cant see any reason why it is illogical to bet more.. in fact its probably illlogical to bet this small.

Well, each to their own.

Wit KK, early doors, I WANT some action. Mathematically, that's what I am trying to achieve with this hand. So yes, I want to price them in. Winning 4 or 5 BB's is no use to me at this stage. If the flop comes bad, fine, I'm outa there. OK, KK with 3 callers it ain't ideal, just be wary, that's all. I see it time & time again, some laddo makes it 500 at 25-50, everyone passes, he puffs out his chest as he shows his (surprise surprise) AA.

Lots of ways to skin the poker cat. Gimme some action if it's early doors. When the Blinds get big, now we use the heavy hammer.

[totalise]

i tend to agree with you in a sense, when u raise with KK and get callers, each caller adds to your expectation preflop, the problem is that if you are too foolhardly postflop, it easily negates your preflop equity. I know that personally im not good enough to know when im beat when 4 or 5 people call preflop, my poker skills arent that good, so i'd rather raise more, reduce the reverse implied odds against my hand, and give them a chance to make a serious error when the flop comes down.


Im intersted to know what you think a bad flop is for your hand, because if you are raising small and getting callers, I wouldnt even know where to begin as to what a bad flop is. I wish you posted more in here though tony, as you always give people a reason to think, and that is surely the main purpose of the PHA board.

regards

J

[Longy]

tony,

what is the basis of your mathematical sense? I mean, the core of math is to price people out, and making it 200 at 25/50 blinds with KK prices them in, given the amount of limpers, with enormous implied odds, so I cant see any reason why it is illogical to bet more.. in fact its probably illlogical to bet this small.

Well, each to their own.

Wit KK, early doors, I WANT some action. Mathematically, that's what I am trying to achieve with this hand. So yes, I want to price them in. Winning 4 or 5 BB's is no use to me at this stage. If the flop comes bad, fine, I'm outa there. OK, KK with 3 callers it ain't ideal, just be wary, that's all. I see it time & time again, some laddo makes it 500 at 25-50, everyone passes, he puffs out his chest as he shows his (surprise surprise) AA.

Lots of ways to skin the poker cat. Gimme some action if it's early doors. When the Blinds get big, now we use the heavy hammer.

I can see you arguement Tikay but i disagree also. This is £15 freezeout and you are unlikely to get many to fold out there hands with a 200 raise. KK plays optimally in a 2/3 handed pot, plus you are losing value from your hand preflop by making it too small. You have to find the perfect amount to get money in the pot in ratio to the chance of you hand winning/ gaining chips from other player. 200 doesn't do this i think 300-350 does.

Also you give massive implied odds to everyone, i will for example play a pair to this raise and a no set, no bet post flop style, mathematically this is bad for you and good for me. You are allowing people to play perfectly against you.

[tikay]

i tend to agree with you in a sense, when u raise with KK and get callers, each caller adds to your expectation preflop, the problem is that if you are too foolhardly postflop, it easily negates your preflop equity. I know that personally im not good enough to know when im beat when 4 or 5 people call preflop, my poker skills arent that good, so i'd rather raise more, reduce the reverse implied odds against my hand, and give them a chance to make a serious error when the flop comes down.


Im intersted to know what you think a bad flop is for your hand, because if you are raising small and getting callers, I wouldnt even know where to begin as to what a bad flop is. I wish you posted more in here though tony, as you always give people a reason to think, and that is surely the main purpose of the PHA board.

regards

J

I don't feel qualified to Post n here much, that's the truth, but I have very strong views on much of what I see in here, though not the conviction to voice them.

I don't play flops well, either, but the thing is this - we have One Pair - that's all. As with AA, so many folks go bust becaise they thnk their 1 pair is unassailable. It's not. Let it go if the pressure rises.

A bad flop for KK?

Any A - obviously. Any Paint. Two Paint too - QJ, QT, JT. AS Gary Bush always said, if there's plenty of pre-flop whizzing & popping, beware an all-paint flop, someone is likely to be "very adjacent", & two pair is likely. I don't wanna see J-J-x or Q-Q-x either.

OK, so we get a no-paint "safe" flop - say, 4-7-8 - safe as Houses. NOW I look out for the telltale signs of a set being out - the check-call, or Rivered Check-Raise. We MUST be able to pass KK or AA. And boy, I'm good at Passing. World-Class, maybe.

[tikay]

tony,

what is the basis of your mathematical sense? I mean, the core of math is to price people out, and making it 200 at 25/50 blinds with KK prices them in, given the amount of limpers, with enormous implied odds, so I cant see any reason why it is illogical to bet more.. in fact its probably illlogical to bet this small.

Well, each to their own.

Wit KK, early doors, I WANT some action. Mathematically, that's what I am trying to achieve with this hand. So yes, I want to price them in. Winning 4 or 5 BB's is no use to me at this stage. If the flop comes bad, fine, I'm outa there. OK, KK with 3 callers it ain't ideal, just be wary, that's all. I see it time & time again, some laddo makes it 500 at 25-50, everyone passes, he puffs out his chest as he shows his (surprise surprise) AA.

Lots of ways to skin the poker cat. Gimme some action if it's early doors. When the Blinds get big, now we use the heavy hammer.

I can see you arguement Tikay but i disagree also. This is £15 freezeout and you are unlikely to get many to fold out there hands with a 200 raise. KK plays optimally in a 2/3 handed pot, plus you are losing value from your hand preflop by making it too small. You have to find the perfect amount to get money in the pot in ratio to the chance of you hand winning/ gaining chips from other player. 200 doesn't do this i think 300-350 does.

Also you give massive implied odds to everyone, i will for example play a pair to this raise and a no set, no bet post flop style, mathematically this is bad for you and good for me. You are allowing people to play perfectly against you.

My apologies, I did not see or realise we were talking a £15 comp. Yes, I bet more here. Amazingly, it works back to front at this level - I may even lump it all in, & sit there looking fidgety.....

[suzanne]

Yes the blinds were 25/50 with so many limpers I thought my 200 raise was enough to say I have a hand take me on.

I did not want to raise too high because I was hoping the flop would be low and if it wasnt then I could bow out without losing too many chips. The ace on the flop was what I did not want to see but I think 200 is a safe bet with KK preflop. Dont forget this is in the first stage of the tourney and I really dont want to commit myself with KK in a  freezeout early doors.

My question was more..is a raise in that situation out of order as the guy seemed really peeved off that I had done that?