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Author Topic: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :)  (Read 4158 times)
kinboshi
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2007, 08:14:20 PM »

Problem with waiting for the turn, is that if you miss, you're no longer favourite to win the hand.  So do you want to stick your money in when you're favourite or when you're a dog?
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AdamG
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2007, 08:35:20 PM »

check raise it on the flop and put it in when ur fave to win!
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2007, 08:44:16 PM »

we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game.

it works for me.
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The_Diamond
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2007, 02:12:03 AM »

we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game.

it works for me.

Seriously, You would push the turn card here? That would be a very easy call for KK.
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kinboshi
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2007, 08:34:12 AM »

we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game.

it works for me.

Seriously, You would push the turn card here? That would be a very easy call for KK.

It would also be the correct call, as he'd be 2 to 1 favourite to win.  Of course, there's more than one way to skin a cat - but I'm always looking to get my chips in when I'm ahead and make my opponent make a mistake in cash games.
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 11:29:21 AM »

I don't want to coin flip for my stack in a cash game. What range do you give him? Does he know your play?
Assuming hes not a moron...The best hand you can put him on for you here is A 10 (discounting a total bluff) and this would offer me the odds i like to get it all in with. Other than that and JJ we are a coin flip or behind.
If i have fold equity on the turn then yes, i shove the turn.

I think Alex approach is perfect if thats the way he likes to play out his big draws but it is essentially a coin flip for your stack if you consider his range. Of course if you play every hand when you have a small edge the same way then you will win overall but you will have some hard times along the way.

Seriously, you keep launching it in on coinflips and i'll wait for 70%ers or at least give the oppo every chance to fold.



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kinboshi
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2007, 11:36:51 AM »

I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK.  I want him to call and make a mistake.  I posted a hand similar to this a while back, and listed the odds against different hands, and you're more often than not the favourite on the flop.

But like I said, more than one way to skin a cat.

thumbs up
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totalise
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2007, 11:58:42 AM »

Quote
I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK.  I want him to call and make a mistake.

gorrila math

you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot.
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Matt85
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2007, 10:50:34 AM »

You potentially have 15 outs on the flop and you're about 55/45 against his range so just get it all in.

Read 2+2 and search for 'sklansky bucks' and be glad you did.

Obviously its player/image dependant how you play draws in general but in this situation getting it all in on a non paired board can never be wrong.

Pushing lots of small edges = Big edge.
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kinboshi
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2007, 10:59:26 AM »

Quote
I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK.  I want him to call and make a mistake.

gorrila math

you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot.

OK that makes sense.  So I make more profit if he folds, but I still make a profit (although a smaller one) if he calls?
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2007, 11:06:11 AM »

Quote
I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK.  I want him to call and make a mistake.

gorrila math

you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot.

OK that makes sense.  So I make more profit if he folds, but I still make a profit (although a smaller one) if he calls?


yah
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Smart Money
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2007, 08:27:46 PM »

Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents.

Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations.

E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush.

However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop.

In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO.



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AlexMartin
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2007, 11:01:35 PM »

Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents.

Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations.

E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush.

However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop.

In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO.

Thats the poker equivalent of Hansen saying i made a great defensive tackle. Happy me Smiley




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Smart Money
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2007, 10:06:51 AM »

LOL.

Just remember to transfer me the $20 we agreed.  Wink
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kinboshi
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2007, 11:05:08 AM »

Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents.

Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations.

E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush.

However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop.

In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO.
Thats the poker equivalent of Hansen saying i made a great defensive tackle. Happy me Smiley


'Tis praise indeed - like the analogy.
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