Advise please coz I cant go on like this

[suzanne]

I know in the past I have posted D-Day (my birthday) threads where I have said that "thats it im done with poker" and meant it at the time because I could not bear the bad beats anymore and just wanted to get out.

Trouble is poker is addictive, and once you are dragged in its sooo hard to get out. You keep going back for more and although you might lose some cash through the bad times you keep going on with the belief that with every game you learn a little bit more which makes you a better player win or lose.

So what went wrong?

I started off as a novice donking of what I could afford each week coz to be honest it was cheaper than the bingo (£50 easy with tickets, babysitter, taxi and large donar with extra chilli) and was quite happy to do that till I joined Blonde and realised that if you learn the game you can WIN.

So I watched the forum and decided here was the best place to learn how to play the game and be a winner.

It all went well at the start, picked up some very valuable tips and started to win games woohooooooooooo. I was actually winning back some of the money that I had lost, I was still down but happy.

I then heard about "bonus whoring" you deposit, when you clear the bonus you get free money. For the novices of you out there....dont even go there. I have deposited the max amount on several sites hoping to double my money but the catch is you cant do it playing stts alone and so (as in my case) you move on to cash to build up the points faster but there is always a shark on the table that will rip ur heart out.

So to sum it all up, I have been playing online now (small time cash games) for 3/4 years, I have never moved out of the danger zone so have stuck to $5/10 stts (which im good at) $5/30 mtts which I never win but im going through the learning process and 25/50/$1 cash where I sometimes win but mostly lose.

I had about 20 different poker accounts at one stage and one by one I have cleaned them all out. I am now depositing at an alarming rate and always promised myself if I could not afford to play poker that I would quit.

Well that day has come. I have tried playing lower stake tables to try and climb back up the ladder but how can you beat a guy who calls all the way to the river to hit trips when you have 2 pair on the flop. I dont have the it in me anymore to fight these fish.

Tonight I thought deposit £25 and thought play tight and double up on a cash table, it was gone in 5 hands.

Simple fact is I cant afford to play anymore. So I dont know what to do.

I feel I have it in me to be a good player but obviously im lacking in something if im having to deposit all the time.

Do I carry on or call it a day?

[TightEnd]

I couldn't sleep tonight Suzanne. Rare for me that so i get the first reply.

My first advice for you...go to bed! Things rarely seem so bleak as at 4am!

What was it that made you try again on all the other times you've posted like this? 

Apart from the forum, what else have you tried to improve with? books? advice from others? is there any more you can do in this area?

Is it just you need a break?

One thing I do know is that if you can't afford to play then you shouldn't do so, the added pressure that puts on yourself is hardly going to help you play to your best is it?

[bolt pp]

Simple fact is I cant afford to play anymore.

Time to call it a day

I'm sure you'd rather hear about how you should hang in there, work on your game and more importantly budget yourself but IMHO that's erroneous user friendly advice that you tend to get on forums to make the poster seem sympathetic and responsible.

If after 4 years you're addicted, losing and cant afford to play, then the amalgamation of those three points should leave you in no doubt that your playing poker is bordering on a dysfunctional addiction and it's time to give it up.

[suzanne]

Yep I think you are both right and I have known it for a long time. Just need the kick up the jacksy I suppose.

[Moskvich]

Sounds like you do have to do something. Calling it a day is definitely one good option. The alternative is to have a break and then come back and really treat both the poker and the money seriously. I think you should do one or the other, but definitely nothing in between.

When I say take the money seriously, I realise that you treat your losses seriously at the moment. But it doesn't sound like you're treating it seriously enough when you're playing. People on forums are always banging on about bankroll management and so on, but that's because it's really important to your poker, as well as your financial wellbeing. You can't just stick 25 quid in your account and go and play $0.25/50 cash. Either you play scared because you don't have enough money in your account to risk losing a hand, or you think "well it's only 25 quid, if i lose it I can put another 25 in later". For obvious reasons, neither attitude is going to be successful. It sounds like you suffer, in different ways, from both of these attitudes.

I'm sure your poker is good enough, potentially, for you to be a winning player. You say you win at low-level SNGs. It sounds to me a bit like your poker habit is not itself the problem - the problem is your depositing habit.

If after a break you want to play again, I think you need to decide how much money you can afford to put aside as your poker bankroll. Make that your bankroll not for the next week, but for ever. Put it on one site and do whatever you can to make sure you can't deposit again (get your bank to block transactions to gaming sites, set your deposit limit at all the sites you're a member of to zero, etc). Then play using proper bankroll management, and err on the side of caution (say, for cash, play only on tables where you've got 30x the max buy-in, rather than the standard 20x). Take a leaf out of Ironside's book, never depositing and playing micro-stakes if that's what your bankroll says you've got to play. Take satisfaction from seeing your bankroll increase, even if it's only by, say, $2 a day. If at any point your bankroll is on the slide, stop, take a break, and try to work out why before you play again. Over a couple of days, it's not because some fish just keeps calling you down and hits on the river. It's because you're not playing well.

If this whole process and the challenge of it holds no attraction for you - then refer to the alternative, and Bolt's suggestion. Just stop.

Whichever option you take, it sounds like it's definitely time for a change. Losing money you can't really afford is no fun, however it's lost. Poker's a great game, but not if its effects make you miserable. Good luck.

[Wardonkey]

Suze,

If you beat the STTs then why do you play cash games? Cash games are much harder to beat, they require a lot more skill and are psychologically a lot more taxing. There's nothing wrong with specialising.

If you can't stay away from the cash games when you log on then you do need to think about quitting. If you have the discipline to stick to the STTs then why not do that?

If your not enjoying it and are just playing out of habit or compulsion/boredom then you absolutely need to quit.

You definitely need a break, at least a month, try to find something new to do or go back to something you enjoy that you used to do in the time you now use to play poker.

If you decide to play again after you've had a bit of time off then read, read, read. Poker is hard work just like anything else. The most successful players are those that not only have a natural talent but also work the hardest on their game.

Most people lose at the game, it takes a particular combination of learned skills and many different psychological aspects to make a winning player. If you chose to stop playing no-one would think any less of you. I'm sure there are many things that you can do that most of us cannot.

[jakally]

Suzanne,

Pretty similar to previous posters, but 4 keys for me :

1. Learning
If you stand still, you go backwards.
In order to become, and to stay, a winning player, it is important that your game improves consistently.

Blonde is a fantastic place to visit, and easily the web location I use the most, but, on its own, it isn't enough to further your poker education on a consistent basis.

Books, other forums, poker learning websites, watching poker on TV are all good ways of learning.

My fav. method at the moment is to make a note of hands during a session that are significant - usually that result in a pot of over half a buy in (in a cash game). At the end of every session, I will go through the key hands during the session, and analyse where I could have better max.ed my winnings, or reduced my losses.

2.  Bankroll
Don't play, save up as much as you can afford, and then start playing when an individual win or loss on your chosen game has virtually little impact on your overall bankroll.
If your bankroll is on your mind when you are playing, then you cannot possibly make good decisions.

3.   Keep Records
Record every game that you play ; buy in, revenue, P&L, finishing position etc...
At the end of every day, summarise how much you wagered, revenue earnt, and P&L.

What gets measured gets done!

4.   Play Games You Can Beat
Most important thing if you want to be a winning player!
The three things above are useless without this.

Be prepared to wait for the right game, or right time to play.
If there is one site where the play is always softer, then stick with it.

If you are more likely to win at STT's, then play those until you have won enough to safely dip your toe in the water elsewhere.


And finally, it's up to you - there aint no magic formula to winning at poker.
If you want to be a winning player, then you can be - but you need to take responsibility for your actions every time you log on.

Good luck.

Jak.

[RED-DOG]

I will offer one piece of advice to anyone who plays poker

ONLY PLAY POKER WITH MONEY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE

That way, you get to keep the important money to pay for for the important things. You get to keep your friends, your sanity, and your self respect.

[byronkincaid]

So I watched the forum and decided here was the best place to learn how to play the game and be a winner.

re cash games, I haven't seen you post many hands. Maybe you should post a hand a day, the hand you lost the most money on or a hand you didn't know wtf to do. Do you read the NL cash forums on 2+2? Have you read the 2 or 3 books that are half decent? Do you use poker stove and poker tracker? Learning cash ain't easy, you have to put a lot of work in. You're probably like me, you just wanna get on with playing and not put the work in, unfortunately that ain't good enough with the games getting tougher all the time.

[ifm]

I have an even simpler solution, play freerolls only.
If you google "freeroll monitor" there is a site that lists in real time all the upcoming freerolls without deposit criteria.
I know that 32red has $1000, $500 and $250 freerolls every hour or so, ok they get thousands of runners but it will satisfy the urge and if you play them often enough you have to pick up some cashes here and there.
Also paddypoker has some juicy ones this month as mentioned on here a couple of weeks back.
There was a blonde member on here a while back that had his own site and a mission to build a bankroll thru freerolls only, can't remember his name maybe someone will remember.
It can be done, it's risk free and is actually quite fun when you can make all sorts of funny, donk moves with no pressure.
I still play plenty of them to relieve the grind feeling, it works!!
Good luck (again)

[Zukertort]

A sincere honest post Suzanne and some great advice from players who are winners at this game. My point comes from a slightly different angle, where i believe a lot of players-including myself, have gone wrong? We discover poker and all it's delights and spend our time learning how to win. We read books, watch the masters at work and try to emulate them & develop a winning game.
We hit the tables and have mixed results, we tend to boast of our skill when we win and blame bad luck when we lose? We become emotionally involved with the game and winning boosts your inner self, but losing crushes you?
After a prolonged losing spell we slip into despair and our game with it & we begin to expect to lose? We actually create the losing scenerio's subconsciously to back up our self defeatised attitude. We check when a bet would win, we bet when we know we are beat, we play marginal hands out of position because we see some donkey play and win that way? Suzanne, i have been there & so have the other players who have given you great advice.
Well, i believe that is the main problem, it is more complex of course, but you get the picture. So what is the solution? In my opinion we need to change our emphasise and create a different mindset, i believe we need to spend as much time on 'LEARNING TO LOSE AS WE DO ON LEARNING TO WIN'.
We need to understand that losing at poker is a part of winning, it is inherent in the game. The edge of a winning player is usually a small one that is why they must always play there 'A' game and have a winning attitude. Okay you ask how can i start to learn to lose? Well i believe the first step is to try and remove the result of any given hand and just focus on the play of the hand. In this way you become detached from the emotion of the result and doing so will not undermine your ability to improve your game. Just focussing on the play of the hand and being honest with yourself is the fastest road to improving your game and just as important, your attitude.
Using this cold analytical approach is helping me improve my game and that winning attitude is developing too!?. Suzanne i hope this helps along with all the great advice you will always receive here.

Keep smiling!    

[RichEO]

Have you read the 2 or 3 books that are half decent?

Which books would those be?

[fearisthekey]

You are in a very fortunate, position, suzanne, in that you have a clear idea of where you stand and can be open about it.
I agree most with the comment about 'cash' games being more taxing and more difficult, I would stay away from them.
As well as skill, knowledge, and discipline, good poker requires a lot of confidence, I think. If you are fearing losses and especially outdraws, then it's best not to play much until after a big break, if you want to return to it at all.
Having said that, there are ways. If you can keep off the cash tables (totally ban yourself from them), there are ways to play quite a lot of poker with not too great a risk. For example, for many people, playing a £20/£30 freezeout at the local casino or even online is going to be a +EV option even if they lose. Anyone can easily cut through £50 a night doing the alternative, going out on the lash. And poker is more fun and more sociable. In return for your £20 you can get a lot of poker for your money.
good luck.

[byronkincaid]

Have you read the 2 or 3 books that are half decent?

Which books would those be?

imo harrington, little green book and NLHE Theory and Practice are OKish. I liked the NL section of Super System and killer poker by the numbers, but there's no stand out great book. hopefully this may be the one

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/202-7550059-6139003

[kinboshi]

Have you read the 2 or 3 books that are half decent?

Which books would those be?

imo harrington, little green book and NLHE Theory and Practice are OKish. I liked the NL section of Super System and killer poker by the numbers, but there's no stand out great book. hopefully this may be the one

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/202-7550059-6139003

Any idea when that's going to be published?  Before Negreanu's I hope...