Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[kinboshi]

Too many people wallow in the rhetoric about the Middle-East with all too little knowledge of the true facts imho.

Says the man in Nottingham.

I am going to side with the experts here and say Israel is being bad.....

Yes I do live in Nottingham James.

But I did live in Israel for several years so I do feel that I have a better grasp of Middle-East realpolitik than most of those posting here on the subject who's main resource for forming what I feel are mainly misguided opinions would appear to be random quotes from The Guardian and Orla Guerin, ie rhetoric.

Spouting about misguided opinions and ignoring facts now Ralph? Or was my post to accurrate for your "I lived there" knowledge?

Rod there is no point in debating this subject with someone who believes that the Israelis are persuing a policy of genocide. As long as that is a cornerstone of your argument we will have nothing to discuss on this matter.

As I said in my previous post I feel that many of your opinions are misguided, however you wish to spin the statistics.

That is my opinion, perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

So that map was spinning? The quote from the Hansard was spinning? Denying access to medical supplies is spinning? The refusal to let a ship of humanitarian supplies through was spinning?

If you are going to defend a Government hell bent of erradicating a race from that race's home then at least have the guts to TRY and discuss it instead of trying the old "you're too extreme to argue with" ploy (only after the good old "Holocaust Denial" ploy). Try and change my argument, probably genocide was too strong, I can go with ethnic cleansing if it helps you. (of course you CAN'T defend that one).

Rod, take a deep breath and then reread my post where I asked Flushy "what next Holocaust denial ?" in response to his suggestion that it might have been better had the state of Israel not been created, as that would be the only way that the state of Israel would not have been created. I did not play "the Holocaust denial card".

If you are observant you will notice that Flushy's reply to my post started with "lol" meaning that he at least understood what that post was all about unlike others including yourself who pounced upon it eager to quote it out of context adding more spin to your burgeoning portfolio of staistics.

Gaza has just as great a border on the Egyptian side as it does with Israel. Are you now going to tell me that it is impossible to import humanitarian supplies from Egypt or are the Israelis somehow blockading that border too ?
And you're right there is a government hell-bent on eradicating a race, the Palestinian government.

Rod and Ralph - can both stick to the debate and the facts/opinions related to it.  Neither of you needs to mention the other person in the debate, as ad hominem arguments don't strengthen your argument.

I don't claim to be an expert in Middle-Eastern politics, but I'd like to see what people put forward as a solution to the problem surrounding Israel, Palestine, and the other states of the region. 

Ralph, just to check a point you raised.  I thought that Hamas put forward the removal of the state of Israel - rather than any mission to wipe out Jews as a race.  Is that not the case?

[tikay]

Good afternoon all, on New Year's Eve.

I'm in hiding today, until New Years Day has gone, I'll feel so happy tomorrow. The texts & phone calls wll come in at Midnight - I hope I'm fast asleep by then, because I always end up piping my eye. And those damn fireworks, sigh.

I was out last night, but when I got back, I had a good look round the Forum, & discovered some extraordinary stuff. Did you see that Post by Alex Martin, on Red's Diary? Alex is a real Jekyll & Hyde - that Post was beautifully constructed, & told us so much about a guy more familiar for indecipherable "gay bet, yo" type lingo. And did you notice that word he used, that young, lairy, Onliner - "etiquette".

And then there's Stu Rutters "Well" - what a hidden talent for writing, & expressing himself well (oops!), that man has! Where has HE been hiding? I know he writes (or did) a lot of stuff for Poker News, but I can't bring myself to read a magazine full of typos, grammaticos, & smileys, I just can't.

There are diamonds everywhere, if we did bit know where to look for them. Like, under our noses.

Big thanks to them both.

[cia260895]

Happy new year to you sir 

[Rod Paradise]

Too many people wallow in the rhetoric about the Middle-East with all too little knowledge of the true facts imho.

Says the man in Nottingham.

I am going to side with the experts here and say Israel is being bad.....

Yes I do live in Nottingham James.

But I did live in Israel for several years so I do feel that I have a better grasp of Middle-East realpolitik than most of those posting here on the subject who's main resource for forming what I feel are mainly misguided opinions would appear to be random quotes from The Guardian and Orla Guerin, ie rhetoric.

Spouting about misguided opinions and ignoring facts now Ralph? Or was my post to accurrate for your "I lived there" knowledge?

Rod there is no point in debating this subject with someone who believes that the Israelis are persuing a policy of genocide. As long as that is a cornerstone of your argument we will have nothing to discuss on this matter.

As I said in my previous post I feel that many of your opinions are misguided, however you wish to spin the statistics.

That is my opinion, perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

So that map was spinning? The quote from the Hansard was spinning? Denying access to medical supplies is spinning? The refusal to let a ship of humanitarian supplies through was spinning?

If you are going to defend a Government hell bent of erradicating a race from that race's home then at least have the guts to TRY and discuss it instead of trying the old "you're too extreme to argue with" ploy (only after the good old "Holocaust Denial" ploy). Try and change my argument, probably genocide was too strong, I can go with ethnic cleansing if it helps you. (of course you CAN'T defend that one).

Rod, take a deep breath and then reread my post where I asked Flushy "what next Holocaust denial ?" in response to his suggestion that it might have been better had the state of Israel not been created, as that would be the only way that the state of Israel would not have been created. I did not play "the Holocaust denial card".

If you are observant you will notice that Flushy's reply to my post started with "lol" meaning that he at least understood what that post was all about unlike others including yourself who pounced upon it eager to quote it out of context adding more spin to your burgeoning portfolio of staistics.

Gaza has just as great a border on the Egyptian side as it does with Israel. Are you now going to tell me that it is impossible to import humanitarian supplies from Egypt or are the Israelis somehow blockading that border too ?
And you're right there is a government hell-bent on eradicating a race, the Palestinian government.

Deep breath taken. Then another, right I'll continue.

So far I've been told my views were ill-informed. I've been told my views were too extreme to enter discussion with me (by someone defending the bombing of civillians because 'there were terrorists there').

Can you not see my natural annoyance Ralph? Your sole facts to my recollection are that:
1. the Israelli army which has invaded at least 2 of the neighbouring countries is a "Defense" Force.
2. that you lived in Israel for a few years.

I've put up facts including evidence that the formation of Israel was nothing to do with the good of the Jews or the Palestinians. I've shown how much land which wasn't theirs Israel have grabbed. They claim to be the rightful Government & are attempting if not genocide, then ethnic cleansing on a people whose country they were settled into without any democratic choice given to those people. But apparently those people should rely on humanitarian aid through Egypt, who the US have pressured not to allow said aid. Why can't they get aid by sea? Ask the Defense Navy.

But hey - I need to take a deep breath & read a right wing newspaper to get my understanding...

[boldie]

Oh how I tried to keep quiet..but have failed again as I soo often do.

I strongly recommend some people on here do a bit of historic research into the Jewish-Arab relations before the British invaded it...even a quick Wiki will help out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Jewish_History_in_Israel

Essentially the Jews and Arabs got on well enough for a long time, until the Brits came in during the crusades. The nation of Palestine was artificially created, as was the state of Israel later on, and this is essentially the cause of all the problems. You can not artificially draw a line on a map and say "this is now a seperate country"! History has taught us that several times over again. The Brits should have realised this..if not in the 12th century then surely in the early 1900's when the plan was first really pushed for.

The current situation is of course a difficult one for Israel, as it is for the Palestinians. Since it's creation, the state of Israel has not been well recieved by it's neighbours who, quite logically, see their land as having been stolen from them. This point IMO can not be argued. You can not just give someone else's house away and not expect that person to be pissed off. It's not clever to do something like that and, essentially that is what happened.
HOWEVER, what history has forgotten is that loads of Palestinians sold their houses to the Jews that wanted to come live there. You also can't argue that someone who has bought your house should move out as "it's your land he's living on".

I am not going to go into the 6 day war and the reason as to why Israel is now bigger than it was when created. Anyone with even a shred of strategic knowledge should realise why Israel is now occupying areas that weren't given included in the original conception of the State of Israel. And anyone with even a shred of historic knowledge about what Israel went through right after it's creation can not argue that for a long time Israel had a pretty good reason to hold on to those strategic areas.


There are a few problems in this "conflict";

On Israel's side;

1; The extreme nationalistic parties in Israel have held power for too long. Israel has a political system that means that coalition governments are unavoidable and, unfortunately, this means that for year the extreme conservative Zionists have had too big a say in the politics of Israel. The fringes have F'ed it up for the majority, as is soo often the case. For decades Israel could not be ruled by a party that wanted to give the Palestinians their own state, as that would mean you couldn't get a majority government and nothing could happen. This has, undoubtedly, added decades to the conflict. The "settlers" into the occupied areas held all the power, whereas those in Jerusalem just wanted this conflict to end ASAP the settles prolonged it by staying in Areas they weren't supposed to be staying. There now seems to be a political trend in Israel towards accepting this but it took a long time.

2; Israel has reneged on the agreement that was made when the state was first created. There would be an independent Israel and an independent Palestine. Now Israel does not seem to want to live up to that end of the bargain. This is, ofcourse, because it is now significantly bigger than originally intended and a spoilt little boy will never voluntarily give up his toys.

3; Israel is the spoilt little boy in the middle-East. The support it has had from America and Britain (amongst others but mainly America) is completely disproportionate to anything the region has ever seen. There are several reasons for this (some of them even good) but that spoiling has contributed to the position Israel now holds. America, politically, can not afford to come right out and say "Israel needs to clean it's shit up" as any American President saying that would lose too many votes.  And Israel knows this. Israel holds the position of power here and is loving every single minute of it.

Now for the Palestinian side;

1; The Arabs have to understand that Israel is "here to stay".  There is simply no arguing this one. The State of Israel should be able to prosper in peace and all it's neighbours need to cut out the shit and stop sponsoring, what can only be described as, terrorism. Hamas has to understand this as well and stop letting it's people fire rockets into Israel every single day.

Yes, there are several reasons why the people might be firing rockets into Israel but none of them are really good enough.

2; They also have to understand that they are partly responsible for the mess they are now in. It is no good playing the victim card and blaming Israel and the Jews for all your woes if your Arab friends haven't done you any favours by continually trying to attack and threaten Israel.
If you are a skinny kid you shouldn't pick a fight with the strongest guy in the street, as he will kick your arse. And when he has kicked your arse, you can't complain about getting it kicked because you asked for an asskicking.



Anyone supporting Israel has to understand, and admit, that Israel is currently over reacting. You don't break out the baseball bat to squat a fly and that is what Israel is currently doing.
The military response to any provocation has the opposite reaction of what Israel is trying to achieve. This "You throw a rock at me and I will carpet bomb your village" way of thinking simply doesn't work. It is understandable that Israelis are pissed off with the constant rocket attacks and provocations but most of these rockets are completely useless for even killing flies. You can not respond to them by wiping out an entire neighbourhood. Don't get me wrong; You should of course respond to them and you should respond with force..but don't over do it.
Make no mistake, none of the "experts" would be complaining if Israel's response would be to wipe out terrorist strongholds. The problem isn't that Israel is reacting, it's that it's over reacting.
You can't wipe out an entire street and expect the innocent people living in that street (and a large part of the Palestinians are innocent in all this in the same way a large part of the Israelis are) to not be pissed off at you. Currently the Israeli response breeds resentment and terrorism.

All the emphasis is currently on Israel and this is mainly because Israel is the rich, strong kid on the block. Israelis, and those supporting them, have to understand that this is always the case. The strong one has to be the one to show restraint, it is a virtue if he can do so. And currently it doesn't seem to be a virtue that Israel possesses.

Israel will have no choice but to accept that there should be a Palestinian state, it will also have to accept that their Holy Cities are not exclusively theirs. All this "Holy Land" stuff is nice but unfortunately there are several religions and several sites are holy for several of these religions. Therefore the Holy Cities should probably be shared by the Israelis and Palestinians.

I don't know if this makes any sense...I had several trains of thought going through this one and find that this is a discussion best had face to face with someone as it is an extremely complicated situations and loads of arguments for and against any point can be made.

It is a shame that those who are the loudest on this subject both in Israel and Palestine are the ones that are on the fringes, as is soo often the case, as most Israelis and Palestinians that I've met (quite a few) just want to find a way for this to end so they can live together again like they did before the British buggered it all up in the 12th century.

[tikay]

I went to "The Western" last night, for their £100 jobbie, I'd been working all day in London, writing & stuff, & decided to play there before the long drive home.

Claw arrived late, & left early, after her Aces were bested by A-J.

A odd thing arose on my Table. The Western have a Jackpot Prize for anyone who hits a Royal Flush in a "contested" pot, it was £1,400 last night, but they award 10% of that to anyone who hits a straight flush.

Early doors, a Lebanese Gent, (or he may have been Latvian, he deffo had an accent) hit a straight flush, in diamonds, 6-7-8-9-10. Nice, he got his £140.

In the same 30 minute Level, another guy on my Table hit the identical straight flush, also in diamonds! The odds on that must be huge. On the second occasion, it was also "contested", by me in this case. Well, I thought my nut flush was good.

The Entey fee was £111, & remembering last time, I examined the Entry Ticket. It stated "£100 + £3". So maybe the £8 goes towards the Jackpot.

So, an early departure, & I headed North, in Temps of -5c most of the way. It's a long haul, but Maria rung just as I left London, & by the time she'd finished, I was passing Leicester - 2 hours north! She can blather for England.

[Rod Paradise]

Thanks Boldie - a good summing up in general.

I would just add the Arab Peace Plan offers full recognition for the state of Israel....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7739198.stm

[Rod Paradise]

Just so the territory the Palestinians are willing to give up their claim on is clear - picture 3 is the map they'd be willing to accept.

Click to see full-size image.

[boldie]

Just so the territory the Palestinians are willing to give up their claim on is clear - picture 3 is the map they'd be willing to accept.

Just to make this clear, when you say "Palestinians are willing to give up their claim on"...that's not all Palestinians and it's HAMAS and it's leaders (and the fringes associated with them) that are not doing the Palestinian cause any favours by denying Israel the right to exist.

I am fairly neutral in this whole discussion as I think both arguments have some merit but the fringes have to be dealt with by both sides before Israel or the Palestinians can expect to get anywhere.

[tikay]

Over in "The Lounge", there is a "welcome to blonde" Thread for new Member "BirdForum", who is Steve Kirk, a Luton regular.

Steve is a big guy - very big. At Luton a few weeks ago, he made what many present thought (I was not there) was an ill-advised comment, but there followed what might be called an "over-reaction". 2 guys in the game, & in addition two Railers (brothers & Cousins, all 4 of them), set about Steve, big time. They hit him from behind, to start with, which took him off-guard, & he was soon on the floor, & the 4 guys were kicking the shit out of him, to his body, his head, the full works.

Eventually they werre dragged off, all 4 were immediately Banned, & the Management pressed Steve to bring charges against his assailants, the whole scene being captured on CCTV. So far as I know, he has decided to let the matter rest. He remains a regular at Luton, with the new nick "Punchbag" Kirk. He often comes to Luton with Sky Poker hotpot & Primo winner "BennyDip".

Steve has an interesting bckground. He was a commercial Airline Pilot, but ill-health forced his (very) early retirement. He's fine & well, but to be an Airline Pilot, the medical requirements are stringent.

With time on his hands, he started dabbling Online, & soon became interested in Forums, & now he owns, runs, or manages over 20 Forums, on topics as diverse as Birds, Steam Locos, Bridges, Shipping, Cooking, & the busiest of all I believe, Fishing.

At one stage, earlier this year, he expressed an interest in becoming involved with blonde, as a Shareholder, & catalyst to help us generate income. It had to be as a major Shareholder, as there was no other way, or point, for him to devote the time & energy to blonde. 

Rich & I met him one morning at a swanky Hotel near Heathrow, he was straight off a flight from somewhere, & we had a good natter. But although we all agreed, pretty much, the difficulty was in obtaining a parcel of blonde Shares for him at the right price. He really wanted to have a majority shareholding, so he needed a big holding from somewhere, & it never happened. The will remains, both sides, but not, at present, the way. We shall see.

Anyway, he's a good guy, & he helps us all the time with bits of advice on Forum Management, advertising leads, etc. He's playing this weekend's 3-2-1 (I'm not, I'm working), so I hope a few blondes say Hi to him. You'll recognize him, he's 7' tall, & 4' wide. Feel free to give him a good kicking, he does not seem to mind.

[RED-DOG]

Can't he find you a job as a thread starter/topic suggester on one of his forums?

[Dingdell]

Dewi, can't he find you a job as a thread starter/topic suggester on one of his forums?

FYP

[tikay]

Can't he find you a job as a thread starter/topic suggester on one of his forums?

I applied for a job on one of his Sexual Practice forums, but he let me down. Maybe he thought I was a blow-up doll.

[tikay]

More 2008 memories.

bolt's Posts - here's a taster. Can't imagine what he's on.

I was playing live and moved all in with 22 on a AKQ board and the guy was looking for info so i took off my sock and made a sock puppet and then got the sock puppet to call up my ex girlfriends mum to get her new phone number and then called her up to confirm that whenever i make a sock puppet to make a point i'm always telling the truth and he folded AK up, that was quite elaborate

[aqualtis]

 happy new year to everyone .