Live cash games against reckless nutcases. Luton here we go!

[AlexMartin]

Been playing live cash the last couple of nights to disastrous effect. I lost a ton but im utterly astounded at how odd the play is in these. £1/2 blinds and £200/£600 deep and i made a lot of mistakes.

Hand 1 for you, id like to know what i could have done differently.  Stack £400, dealt As10s utg+2 playing 7 handed. I raise to £8, 4 callers, button moves all-in for £30 (guy just lost a big pot and is losing heavily tonight) , i call, 2 more callers. 1st caller is reasonable, has shown no real pattern to his betting, bets big in relation to the pot with mediocre holdings like second pair, can make big calls with weak hands, £500. Second player has a fundamental understanding of the game and has a lot of gamble in him, not afraid to make a big bluff.

Flop comes . I bet £45 into £120 pot. 2 Callers.
At this point im wanting to control the pot size, im worried about a set/2 pair trapping me till the turn, ESP with the dry pot from all-in player.

Turn . Im not ecstatic about this card but figure i need to bet to find out where i am, £75 bet into £240 pot, 1 caller. - think this was mistake no.1,  but figured both players must put ai player on a hand and would shut me out with a big hand here. Think i should have bet £150.

River 10h. Giving me 2 pair and putting a flush out. Pot now £400 ish and im putting him on a weaker ace, weaker 2 pair possibly. I bet £80 and he moves in. I have about £200 remaining. Call or pass?







Second hand. Stack of £250. Most other players have equal or more. Dealt KK in the BB. 6 limpers. I raise to £30. 2 callers. Flop comes 10, 6, 2 rainbow. I check, 1st player bets £40 (can play a bit), second player (nutter, bluffs a lot and generally loose) raises to £120. Folded to you. Decision?


thoughts on both hands please, ill post carcrash tomorrow.

[jezza777]

1- call

2- shove

[Smart Money]

Hand 1:

In loose games like this, I like to be in position with any big pots. So I may well just limp in here with ATs.

I like the smallish flop bet, but I'd check the turn given that there are two callers. The 9 is possibly the worst card that could appear- you certainly would prefer to see a Ten or higher. (Any card lower than a ten may improve a worse Ace than yours- whereas any card higher than a ten can only strengthen an Ace you are already behind to.)

I wouldn't fancy my chances of being ahead here, and checking should give you an indication of where you are at a cheaper price.

You described caller 1 and caller 2 but you didn't say which one called the turn bet. I'd probably fold to the river raise if it came from pre-flop caller 1, although I'd hate to do so and see him turn over A7 or A9. I'd say it was more likely that he had 77, 33, or AhXh. I'd be more inclined to call against pre-flop caller 2.


Hand 2:

My line of thinking is usually that as long as I charge someone enough with a pre-flop AA/KK raise, then I'm paying off a set.

In general, and particularly with a decent player acting immediately after you, I think you should bet out on this flop as it's gives you vital information. E.g I bet £50 on the rainbow flop, decent player calls, nutter pushes- I'm probably folding as there's a very good chance that 1st caller has a set here even if I have the nutter beaten. Whereas by checking flop, you have little idea how strong the first player's hand is when he bets. I'd hate to fold and then see the first player fold too, as more often than not you are ahead of the nutter here.

The ideal scenario would be: Bet flop, first player folds his over pair, nutter pushes with his over-pair/AT and you take his stack.

[johnbhoy76]

Been playing live cash the last couple of nights to disastrous effect. I lost a ton but im utterly astounded at how odd the play is in these. £1/2 blinds and £200/£600 deep and i made a lot of mistakes.

Hand 1 for you, id like to know what i could have done differently.  Stack £400, dealt As10s utg+2 playing 7 handed. I raise to £8, 4 callers, button moves all-in for £30 (guy just lost a big pot and is losing heavily tonight) , i call, 2 more callers. 1st caller is reasonable, has shown no real pattern to his betting, bets big in relation to the pot with mediocre holdings like second pair, can make big calls with weak hands, £500. Second player has a fundamental understanding of the game and has a lot of gamble in him, not afraid to make a big bluff.

Flop comes . I bet £45 into £120 pot. 2 Callers.
At this point im wanting to control the pot size, im worried about a set/2 pair trapping me till the turn, ESP with the dry pot from all-in player.

Turn . Im not ecstatic about this card but figure i need to bet to find out where i am, £75 bet into £240 pot, 1 caller. - think this was mistake no.1,  but figured both players must put ai player on a hand and would shut me out with a big hand here. Think i should have bet £150.

River 10h. Giving me 2 pair and putting a flush out. Pot now £400 ish and im putting him on a weaker ace, weaker 2 pair possibly. I bet £80 and he moves in. I have about £200 remaining. Call or pass?

That's a tough one at the end

He could be one of these guys who flops an Ace and just will not fold no matter what so if he has AK, AQ, AJ etc... you are laughing

the problem is if he was on a draw then the 10h is probably the worst card you could have seen as it puts a flush out there and it makes a few straights that he could be holding.

I think you should have bet bigger on the flop (I understand what you are saying about keeping the pot small)

You had to find out where you were on the turn but I think this was due to the fact that the bet on the flop didn't gather you any information in the first place. Maybe a bigger bet on the flop would have let you know where you stand?

I'm not really a cash game expert so I'm just thinking out loud here.

I'd have checked on the river when the ten came. I know that may seem a bit daft at first but if you think about it. That ten has either made his straight/flush or it hasn't. If you bet here he will only call or raise if he's made his hand IMHO

If you check he may bluff at it. Basically I don't see him calling your £80 bet with a worse hand than you given how the hand has panned out. So in the long run I think the £80 bet on the end is a losing play as it wont get called often enough by a worse hand. If you check then you are probably going to have to pay off a value bet from him on the end but you will also pick up the extra money when his bluffing.

I will say though that I don't really like playing hands like AQ AJ AT etc... in cash games as you tend to either win a small pot our lose a huge pot with them. Especially if it is a loose game with lots of callers pre-flop.

[geeforce1]

personally i would fire a proper bet on the flop, 90 to 100. i prefer this play b/c you have a greater idea what your against. your reasoning was you wanted to control the size of the pot, but you then proceed to bet every street, pricing in draws and building a pot for them if they hit. it is very difficult to control the pot oop, i would try with small bets it gets you in difficulty. if you get a flop caller then slow down, but imo you can then have less fear of the backdoor flush and str draws on the river. it makes a river check call easy.

hand 2 - push, but i am guessing unlucky

[Smart Money]

the problem is if he was on a draw then the 10h is probably the worst card you could have seen as it puts a flush out there and it makes a few straights that he could be holding.

...you then proceed to bet every street, pricing in draws and building a pot for them if they hit.


Are we all looking at different boards lads? You couldn't have a flop with less draw potential!

And what straight could that Ten on the river have made? How likely is it that 86 or J8 would have have called the pre-flop raise, let alone the flop bet!?

The only problem with weak continuation bets on those type of boards is that it may induce a bluff that you don't feel you can call (but with one player all-in already that is far less likely as the fold equity is likely restricted to just the small side pot.)

Over-betting on the flop, especially OOP, with less than a very strong holding is possibly the biggest single mistake players make at full-handed cash tables.

[AlexMartin]

Problem was, in the 1st case, i specifically bet small as the lack of draws meant i was miles ahead or miles behind. I didnt want to start hammering away with 2/3-3/4 pot bets and have someone slowplay me. In retrospect i should have fired a big one on the flop then checked the turn.

I ended up calling the all-in bet with the 1st hand, knowing it was a weak crying call. It was against the second player described. The only hand he is jamming with on the river is a made flush i think, cant put him on a runner runner str8. Turns out he had so flopped a gutshot and picked up a flush draw on the turn. Think i should have saved myself money on the river but i couldnt help but feel he plays 710/79/A9/A7 the same.

Second hand i shoved OTT and was insta-called by the second guy. 1st guy had 910 and folded. Second guy had 10 6 for top 2. Given that its gone check, bet, raise i do my money all day long here i think (when this shallow). I dont want to bet out as it enables them to put me on an overpair too easily and i lose money from 10x type hands.

[jakally]

Over-betting on the flop, especially OOP, with less than a very strong holding is possibly the biggest single mistake players make at full-handed cash tables.

I think a smaller CB is ok with an underpair - KK, QQ, JJ etc..., when a normal sized bet would be a mistake.

In this situation, I would be inclined to put in 3/4 pot or greater, on the flop.
I am OOP to 2 players, and think I've probably got the best hand - and am happy to take what's there now.

As you've already explained the outcome, it's too easy to say, but FWIW I would probably have folded when raised on the end.

[geeforce1]

Over-betting on the flop, especially OOP, with less than a very strong holding is possibly the biggest single mistake players make at full-handed cash tables

not imo. inability to play down the streets gets ppl into more probs. put out a decent bet that represents a strong hand, if called then learn to slow down. on this sort of board that is greater ev than putting out bets that represent nothing all the way down the river or check calling all the way. the fact that its a dry side pot u gain more info by doing this cos u would expect ur bet to be respected more.

also i dont agree that checking will give u better info, a hand in position could pick up pot with TT JJ. also how do u then play down each street? a bigger ace can value bet the death out of u, or a smaller ace take u off ur hand depending how passive you are. at least by playing it strong you are saying i have a big ace...now call flop and outplay turn if u dare, and most likey if this is the case u r beat. controlled aggression is far more profitable

[geeforce1]

also as a side note this isnt a fullring game. its only 7 handed, although it is difficult to figure out who called and when, did utg and utg+1 play hand? and how did u get 4 callers after ur raise for the button to then push? surely after you its the cutoff then the button. very minor points(and maybe i have misread, i often do)but it does help in building a picture of whats going on

[AlexMartin]

Decided that in retrostpect hand 1 is so rarely a river bluff that it should be a fold. A much bigger flop bet saves money as i get the best information cheapest here.

Hand 2. Raiseeven more preflop as some gibbon will deffo call. Commiting20% preflop im unsure if i should ever be folding postflop to this type of player however.He's less than 4-1 to crack KK with this shite pre so should i always swallow on this board?

In short, I just remembered how profitable live cash is, whoopee.

[A_Leper]

Hi

I squeezed in long live £1/£2 session over the weekend (at gutshot, maybe that was where you were as well) and noticed a few things in particular which I consider mistakes / total nonsense, which even the better players were doing (and I do as well). These are more apparent in live games because you can hear people explain their awesome thought processes during / after hands.

One important thing to remember when thinking about live hand analysis is that probably half the table will be horrible horrible players so there is little point trying to analyse/critique their play because their thought process only makes sense to themselves or people with a similar mindset, just think about your play in relation to how you think they act.

Here are some:
Letting pot sizes get out of control with weak hands (and OOP) - So, in your example hand you said you wanted to keep the pot size small, yet you ended up playing for stacks. This is an issue. I would have check called that all the way. This would have cost you like £200 max rather than £400 or whatever, which obviously still isn't great, but I think in the long run this is a better play.

"I just wanted to take the pot down right there" & "Protecting my hand!" - Soooo many people say this and in my opinion it's just not the right way to think at all. You are either betting for value or you are bluffing.

Betting for information / Defining your hand - see above.

Not thinking ahead or having a plan - I saw often people having really huge dwell ups thinking about what to do (specifically in response to some one raising them) where from the previous action / pot size the player should have already had a plan about what to do. For instance, in hand 1 if you are betting that river, you just have to call that push, I'm glad you did call it, and hope you instacalled it. Hand 2, again I'm glad you pushed, because that must have plan after you checked the flop right? (on a side note I'd have just lead out that flop)

Betting too small in relation to the pot - I saw this happening way too often (obviously there are some times when it's good to bet like 1/4 of the pot or something). It's a bit tricky because the pots get so big since most people are such huge calling stations pre flop, but you just have to not be a pussy about it bet a decent size if you are going to bet at all.

Trying to get in on the action - You said "Been playing live cash the last couple of nights to disastrous effect. I lost a ton but im utterly astounded at how odd the play is". This bascailly translates to the players are horrible and you should be able to beat them but you didn't. This is a totally acceptable thing to think and it's almost certainly true. I also think it myself and it used to frustrate me when I lost significantly. One of the main reasons why I was losing was that I'd be watching all the insane action going down with people having showdowns for £1k+ pots with like bottom pair and I want to get involved myself, so I'd start calling like £30 preflop OOP with total rubbish garbage hands, and this is just a major leak, but it's hard to stop yourself. Just thought I'd mention this as something to think about in case you also do it.

That's quite a long post and it's supposed to be constructive, not critising.

Cliff notes: Hand 1 I would have check called all the way, as played call the raise. Hand2 shove.

[johnbhoy76]

the problem is if he was on a draw then the 10h is probably the worst card you could have seen as it puts a flush out there and it makes a few straights that he could be holding.

...you then proceed to bet every street, pricing in draws and building a pot for them if they hit.


Are we all looking at different boards lads? You couldn't have a flop with less draw potential!

And what straight could that Ten on the river have made? How likely is it that 86 or J8 would have have called the pre-flop raise, let alone the flop bet!?

Given that the description of his opponents is "reckless nutcases" then I'd say it's a  distinct possibility.

[Smart Money]

Over-betting on the flop, especially OOP, with less than a very strong holding is possibly the biggest single mistake players make at full-handed cash tables

not imo. inability to play down the streets gets ppl into more probs. put out a decent bet that represents a strong hand, if called then learn to slow down. on this sort of board that is greater ev than putting out bets that represent nothing all the way down the river or check calling all the way. the fact that its a dry side pot u gain more info by doing this cos u would expect ur bet to be respected more.

also i dont agree that checking will give u better info, a hand in position could pick up pot with TT JJ. also how do u then play down each street? a bigger ace can value bet the death out of u, or a smaller ace take u off ur hand depending how passive you are. at least by playing it strong you are saying i have a big ace...now call flop and outplay turn if u dare, and most likey if this is the case u r beat. controlled aggression is far more profitable

Turn and river bets are naturally made relative to the current pot size, so once you have bloated the pot on the flop you often have to commit all your chips or fold.

E.g. You advise betting £100 on the flop. If you receive a caller, you have a £320 pot and you have £270 behind. How do you now "slow down" here as you suggest? Let's say you check- you have to either fold or push all-in to any bet.

Also, the reason checking the turn gives you better info at a cheaper price (in the original situation) is because a hand like TT/JJ (your example) will rarely try and pick the pot up if it's not Heads Up. It will often be checked through allowing you to make a value river bet. Whereas if there's a bet and a call/raise (on that board) then it's an easy fold- and you've saved yourself a turn bet. You are failing to recognise the siignificant difference between having just one caller and having more than one caller to your flop bet.

(6-handed and below is short-handed. 7-handed and up, you can play similar to 8/9-handed.)

[Smart Money]

the problem is if he was on a draw then the 10h is probably the worst card you could have seen as it puts a flush out there and it makes a few straights that he could be holding.

...you then proceed to bet every street, pricing in draws and building a pot for them if they hit.


Are we all looking at different boards lads? You couldn't have a flop with less draw potential!

And what straight could that Ten on the river have made? How likely is it that 86 or J8 would have have called the pre-flop raise, let alone the flop bet!?

Given that the description of his opponents is "reckless nutcases" then I'd say it's a  distinct possibility.

There is a difference between a reckless nutcase and a blind reckless nutcase. Only a blind man would have a remote chance of hitting a straight here.