a tikay tourney hand

[TightEnd]

Table moves mid comp can be scary things


tikay had just moved to a new table here, I think I was probably the only player he had played regularly and I play so few hands I don't count.


armed with the info I had from playing the table for two hours, he would I am sure have played it completely differently

[KingPoker]

Table moves mid comp can be scary things


tikay had just moved to a new table here, I think I was probably the only player he had played regularly and I play so few hands I don't count.


armed with the info I had from playing the table for two hours, he would I am sure have played it completely differently

exactly with no info on the early raiser and MP caller how can you possibly know where you are. You maybe ahead, you maybe a 20% dog, who knows!

[BigTomatoes]

 i would have grabbed all my chips and looked at you tighty , waited for the nod then shipped them in.

 nah , i think if i was Tony in this spot i'd pass , you have no clue where you are in the hand , you have no idea if you make a move , how it will turn out , tbh , you dont neeed to jeopardise your big stack either in this position with 10's , i pass here.

 but i have a feelig utg had Ace Rag suited , MP had KQ and the short stack pushed with 66 and you were raging. lol

[tikay]

This is utterly fascinating, more so as I know how it played, & what I done. I'll say no more for now.

Except, as Boldie says, who's stolen Compo's Password? My word, his game has come on leaps & bounds in a short time. He played just about 24/7 in Vegas - he worked, or played (2 hours sleep seems enough for him) & he won over $13,000. I tell ya, he's got some amazing game. Weird game too, he's like something between Thewy & Roland. I've played a fair bit of cash with him during our Poker Week trips, and his game has improved out of all recognition. You do NOT want him on your table, trust me. Shocking dress sense, though. Another similarity between him, Thewy & Roland.

This the same compo that was drunk as a skunk at Luton on Wednesday? LOL, that was funny.

No, wrong Compo. Boy of boy, what a pain the butt HE was! He rung up someone (whilst in a hand) & said "hey Bud, I've won so much money at poker this week I can't fit it all in my wallet". He could win the WSOP & stick it all the dosh in his gob though, & still have room to place his foot in, too.

[doubleup]

armed with the info I had from playing the table for two hours, he would I am sure have played it completely differently

hmmm this sounds like allin call call.  TT vs monster, bigger monster.  Ten on board - ship it!

[Tragic]

Pushing = Total luck as to the outcome. Fold and play hands where you have some control.

[Tragic]

There isn't that much chance Shorty has a small pair either, it's such a bad push with the likes of 66.

[kinboshi]

Pushing = Total luck as to the outcome. Fold and play hands where you have some control.

Doesn't pushing put you in control?

I think both folding and pushing have their merits here.  With the limited information we have, I think I'd lean towards the push...possibly.

[MANTIS01]

A few more thoughts about this hand....

As ever, this is all about the specifics of the situation and the table dynamics would call for me to push in this instance.

When you arrive at the table you find yourself in a healthy chip position in comparison to the main protagonists in this hand. While it is true you have little information about the playing style of your opponents they have little information about your own playing style...so all parties in this deal are a little in the dark in this area. To err on the side of caution because of this is reasonable but a bit undesirable for me....let them choose the cautious route if they want!

Even if you were at the table for a little longer...only a range of hands can be speculated upon. Hand range is only one facet of information you use when making a decision and at best this can only be guessed at. In tournament play when tables are broken-up often...pinning the foundation of your decisions on this one pin-prick of information can often be dependant on time scales that just don't happen. In this example Tightend has been playing at the table for over 2 hours and has the luxury of benefitting from good quality information in the area of playing styles...that is desirable...but that is a different tournament journey...can we afford to wait for 2 hours to make a more informed judgement with just 4 tables left? Retreating from a potential winning situation because this one piece of the puzzle is not in place is quite conservative I think.

Anyway back to the dynamics. If I had less chips I fold. If my opponents had more chips I fold. If one or both opponents went all-in before it reached me I fold (it's horrible to decimate a big stack by calling all-ins)...but in this instance I get to use my big stack aggressively (that's what it's for) and there is absolutely nothing to suggest I don't have the best hand right now. The crux of the matter is that my opponents can dent me IF they do decide to take me on but they can't cripple me. So with the chips I have I am much more inclined to want to get involved aggressively than to retreat passively.

Putting it another way what would you do if you look down to find Q-Q? The bigger pairs still have you mullered! In fact there is a good case to fold Kings here because Aces still own you!...but isn't this the case every time you push a hand pre-flop without the bullets? You don't have the nuts right now so you could be behind. At what point are you going to draw a line in the sand? I push kings and queens here so by that rationale it's very difficult to find a good enough reason to fold 10s.

If I win a tournament and walk out of the casino with a couple of grand me and the mrs will be eating in a classy restaurant, not getting a takeaway...why?...because we can! This situation is no different...you can afford a bit of luxury so it's time to splash out a bit. And putting your chips in first, as ever, gives you those all important two chances to win. The beauty of pre-flop play is that whatever cards are turned over you wont be drawing dead, and that's IF the other players have the hands or the will to tangle with you.

This brings me on to another important point. As students of the game we become a little obsessed with turning over in front (I am massively guilty of this syndrome). While it is certainly true that it gives you the best chance to win a pot there are absolutely no guarantees. Turning over the best hand is a +EV play in the long run...true...but as ever a tournament is not a long run deal, it is a flurry of activity over the course of a few hours...then it ends and the universe resets itself. What works long term is insignificant in comparison to what does the job on any particular day. I haven't won a tournament in a couple of weeks now and yet EVERY time I have pushed I have had the best hand but still lost. It becomes a little tiresome to constantly remind yourself that you win with that play in the long run...you are out...end of. So theoretically I may want my opponent to call with his dominated ace but in reality I don't want the call...because his call signalled the end of my tournament!

The other thing is that a +EV tournament play is always going to be a negative emotional play. Why? Well because when your A-K stands up against your opponents A-Q you feel nothing....it's what was supposed to happen. But on those occasions when a queen hits the board it's a killer. So turning over in front can only make you feel bad when you loose.

Because of my fanatical approach to turning over ahead I very rarely experience the fist-pumping joy of coming from behind. A good suck-out for a big pot is one of the best gambling experiences there is and like I said you get weary watching your opponents punch the air as you reach for your coat.

Tournament play is never going to be an exact science. Sometimes you have to dance with the devil to get to where you want to be. Anyone who wins an event is going to have to confess that they got lucky (probably more than once) on their way to victory. So while it's true you have scant information about your opponents look at the things that are working in your favour. You have a solid hand. You are pushing first and asking a big question. It's pre-flop so you have chances to win if called no matter what. You are using your chip advantage to take the bull by the horns and win the event. You have plenty enough chips to take this gamble on and loose. And most importantly, if you do find yourself behind, you set yourself up for a +emotional experience should you suck out. You can afford the classy restaurant right now so it's time to splash out.

If things go wrong you find yourself still very much alive and it's time to tighten your belt a bit. Back to take-aways for a while. At the very least when you pick up A-A and cutely over-bet it you find yourself quickly called by a mug with 10s...who has quality information about your pushing range!

[boldie]

excellent post mantis

[Tragic]

Pushing = Total luck as to the outcome. Fold and play hands where you have some control.

Doesn't pushing put you in control?

I think both folding and pushing have their merits here.  With the limited information we have, I think I'd lean towards the push...possibly.

Control for me consitutes having more of an idea of what our opponents have and acting accordingly, this is just blind hope the shorty/initial raiser doesn't have a biggy. When you have plenty of opportunity to play poker I don't like it.

[KingPoker]

Pushing = Total luck as to the outcome. Fold and play hands where you have some control.

Doesn't pushing put you in control?

I think both folding and pushing have their merits here.  With the limited information we have, I think I'd lean towards the push...possibly.

Control for me consitutes having more of an idea of what our opponents have and acting accordingly, this is just blind hope the shorty/initial raiser doesn't have a biggy. When you have plenty of opportunity to play poker I don't like it.

My thoughts exactly

[Tragic]

But having read Mantis' post I retract all previous statements . Or maybe not...It's a toughie.

[Tragic]

I do find though that if you have absolute faith in your flop play then it is better to avoid situations like this. Lol at my confused rant. OK I FOLD NO FURTHER COMMENTS.

[MANTIS01]

Well a word about blind luck and control. EVERY time you put a chunk of chips across the line pre-flop you are committing them to the subtleties of luck. If someone raises and you re-raise with A-K you are hoping you don't run into Aces etc...and I agree with Kinboshi in so much as pushing uses an advantage you have in chip power to try and control the situation. If one of the ep players decide to call with queens they are now committing to the very same blind luck that YOU don't have a bigger hand. This is the nature of the game we play.

The comments about post-flop play become hugely relevant when we find ourselves in a deep-stack situation. With us and our opponents nursing in excess of 50x bb each post-flop guile becomes the skill-set you rely on to progress. The dynamics of this situation are much different here though. The other players have a few thousand each and so have scant enough to be pressured post-flop no matter how cunning your play. Because our opponents rest in this amber/red bracket of stack size pre-flop play becomes far more significant. The...I can knock you out and am prepared to put you to the test BEFORE we see the board is a route I want to take often here. It would be nice to see the flop before committing but this is far more pertanent for shorter stacks...I don't have to give them that luxury...so I wont. And yes there are 4 bigger pre-flop hands out there but there is an awful lot more hands my 10s beat right now!

So the dynamics of this unique situation suggests it's time to get the hob-nailed boots on and give them a good pre-flop kicking if you ask me.