a tikay tourney hand

[bobby1]

I don't mind the push or the fold (think I'd be pushing here though), but I don't understand the idea of calling here.

Those who think the call is the right play, what are you hoping for on the flop (other than two more tens ), and how are you going to react to the inevitable bet that comes on the flop?

OK I advocated a call, as I knew UTG raisers range was wide and his modus operandi was not to CB if missed


with tikay's info the call was to be made on the basis that a) if UTG re-raises you can let go, b) if not then it could be checked down or you let go if ncessary

I accept that against most opponents this is pretty unlikely

Thats how I saw the hand.

[tikay]

Of course, if I'd gone the Mantis Route & pushed, I'd have collected a monster pot.

I can't actually recall if I even finalled or not.

you finalled, outdrawing me with 5 left and then doing a 3 way chop!!

That's incorrect Richard. I had K-Q, you had the temerity to move with A-7. I called knowing I was ahead. My hand held up.

Seriously, thanks for Posting this thread Rich, it's a great read.

I've thought again about the optimum play for me in this hand - I now believe my Pre-Flop release of TT was correct. I tried to cash by dodging bullets & un-necessary confrontation, & even though I would have won this hand if I pushed, I still, I'm reminded, chopped the comp. So mission accomplished.

But what's right for me is not necessarily right for other players, we all employ different routes to success. Or failure. I think 6 or 7 players out of 10 push with the TT. And they'd have taken the hand, of course.

I'm so proud to be part of blonde some days - this thread demonstrates why.

[ifm]

Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

Agreed, there is a lot of waffle with little actual justification, this is where flushy rules "instafold"

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: ifm

"instafold"

there is a lot of waffle with little actual justification

hmmm....

[MANTIS01]

When I was at school Thursday afternoons brought a double dose of History with Mr. Hall...a real history fanatic. He was a good guy but quite a wacky individual. For instance, he would always wear two watches, one on each wrist. Whenever we would ask why he did this he would give the same reply...."To tell the time!"

He only once gave a different answer..."Why do you wear two watches Mr. Hall?"

"In case one stops!" he exclaimed...a fair enough answer.
 
One of my quick-witted classmates responded with "What if they both stop Mr. Hall"...to which he immediately replied..."That reminds me, I must get a third!"

Mr Hall was an amicable, easygoing individual and was certainly smarter than the average bear. He was psychologically astute and had an answer for everything. One Thursday afternoon we had been instructed to turn to pg. 56 of our history textbooks and indulge ourselves in the delights of The 100 Years War. During this so called "quiet time" one of the other pupils had the temerity to lob a rubber from the back of the class....it neatly dinked off Mr. Hall's bowed head. The usually placid Mr. Hall went absolutely berserk, bits of chalk went pinging off desks and the stack of exercise books on his table came fluttering down all about. Everyone kept there heads down trying to look too engrossed in the Holy Roman Empire to notice...but in reality we were just staring blankly at the pages waiting for the storm to pass.

Let me say that I attended a rather strict Grammer School...not a modern day inner-city comp where you may find some 6ft 14 year-old squaring-up to his dishevelled looking teacher before demanding "What yer goin do about it sir!!" At this school the merest hint of insubordination would lead to a lengthy stint outside the headmasters office waiting to be "seen". This was not a place you would want to find yourself. You would often stand for an inordinate length of time (perhaps 2 hours or more) as other pupils went by licking their fingers and touching their faces to sizzling noises. I am quite sure the lengthy wait was part of your rehabilitation package and it was somewhat of a relief to eventually get in to see Mr. Harvey (who was actually the devil himself). The generally accepted tactic in his office was don't speak...nod a lot...look like you're going to cry...mumble "sorry sir" and make a quick exit.

Anyway I'm waffling lol...so back to Mr. Hall.

Following this near heart-stopping one man riot do you think anyone lobbed a rubber in his class again? No sir, not on your nelly. For the rest of the year history class was a silent and cultured hotbed of academia. We had all seen what Mr. Hall was capable of and we certainly didn't want a repeat performance. He never lost his temper again...I like to think and am quite sure he knew what he was doing.

So how does this all relate to Tikay's tournament hand?

Well I am firmly in Tikay's camp of wanting to play low risk poker. Every time you risk chips you could loose them and so I also want to avoid confrontation whenever possible. And a number of fellow members have talked about the risk/reward ratio of pushing all-in with the pair of tens.

In pushing with the 10s I am hoping to avoid confrontation not encourage it. With a short-stack all-in many players have a tendency to let their hand go. They do this because they know they will be seeing your cards and this I find often tips the balance. Flat-calling can only set me up for confrontation so I use my big stack to avoid it.

Most importantly though is the fact that yes you are taking a risk but the reward is not just the pot on offer in this hand. Thinking that is a mistake. By moving with the big stack here I offer the other players a glimpse of the medicine they can expect to taste if they choose to tangle with me in future pots. The all-in may be scary for us but it looks damn impressive to the other players. After winning this hand I will have oodles of pre-flop credit with which to take pots down uncontested. Tikay may be able to achieve this with his stature and image alone but I feel the need to put the idea into my opponents mind that you tangle with me I don't back down. And this idea will dwell in their heads for a long time I find.

If someone does play back at me the information I get is much clearer. I am probably up against a monster so bail-out.

Using Mr. Hall's psychology of control can be a real winner. A rare burst of dominance can really pacify the table for you. Taking pots down becomes much easier...I see reluctant folds all the time after this move has been performed and your passage to the final is often more free from confrontation than it could have been.

This is why I say use the big stack while you have it. Not often, but just enough so the other players have doubt. When you put doubt in their minds it is THEY who opt to avoid confrontation WITH YOU not visa versa and this can only serve to maintain your dominance.

High risk indeed but just wanted to say that the rewards are not just the chips here and now. Sometimes the push can be a means to avoiding confrontation, paticularly future confrontation, not to indulge in it.

[tikay]

To be fair, I'm not used to playing with a big stack, so although I agree it's a much different game, I need more practice at it........I take your point about using the deep-stack though.

[tikay]

Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

Agreed, there is a lot of waffle with little actual justification, this is where flushy rules "instafold"

I've really enjoyed the "waffle" to be honest, & so have many. It's not so much knowing the corect decision, it's why that matters, & it's fascinating to see so many different theories bandied about. We had opinions in favour of Passing, Calling & Pushing, all of them explained. If the situation arises again, I'll have a deeper insight, & so will others.

Great stuff, thanks to all who contributed.