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Author Topic: a tikay tourney hand  (Read 6358 times)
booder
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« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2007, 04:53:58 PM »

Awesome
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« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2007, 04:55:16 PM »

Great stuff Mantis thanks

I will leave the great man himself to describe what happened next......
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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2007, 04:58:45 PM »

I thought it was an easy fold..untill I read` Mantis' posts...made me think twice about how to play this sort of thing in the future....
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2007, 05:17:41 PM »

Awesome

You're talking about my post, aren't you?

Grin
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« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2007, 05:26:04 PM »

I had similar thoughts to Boldies its an easy fold in the first instance but when you take time to think the situation through like Mantis has you can make a strong case for pushing also.  Even if we push and we are wrong we still have a healthy stack that can allow us an opportunity to play.  Reading between the lines I think TK has chosen to fold and has found himself up against two aces and a small  PP, and sods law dictates he hits a 10 on the turn.

Having thought it through I am going to fold.  I think I might have been ahead on the flop and the turn with my 10's but some cruel outdraw on the river would have done me thats the luck I carry at the moment.

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« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2007, 05:27:00 PM »

So Tighty, you gonna tell us what our Hero did? (I remember my action clearly, & I remember the Board, & I remember ONE Opponents hand, but I can't recall the other guy's hand).

Once you describe what happened, I will explain why I did what I did. That I CAN remember, because it's a basic facet of my Play in Tourneys. I'll also explain an error I made here, in this play, &, identically, in a subsequent Tourney.
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« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2007, 05:37:42 PM »

Hero folded, concerned about the Original raiser's subsequent action if he flat called with his pair of tens, and wary of being dominated if he pushed


Original raiser flat called the all in, as did the MP cold caller

Three of them saw this flop

  x, blank on the turn and  on the river (irrelevant once tikay has passed, results orientated to focus on it really!)

It was checked down all the way


Short stack pusher revealed  to triple up

the MP caller of the original raise showed 

Original raiser mucked, hand unknown


I with the info I had knew Orig raiser was a poor loose player, happy to open raise from anywhere with a wider variety of hands and then fold to pressure, but of course tikay did not know this



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« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2007, 06:54:29 PM »

Without tighty's info im still folding here EVERY time!

Unless you know the players, pushing with 10's after an early raise and call and a shortstack all in HAS to be -EV surely.

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« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2007, 06:58:22 PM »


There is a basket of evidence to weigh up in these situations, & they vary in importance, but they all count to a greater or lesser degree. They include.....

1) First Raiser. Whilst I discard all this "be wary of EP Raiser, he could have a monster" nonsense (generally, few folks play THAT well), the fact is, the Raiser I am always most wary of is the one who has acted first, but for a different reason. I have info on 2nd, 3rd & 4th to act - because THEIR actions take into Account Original Raiser. I have no info on the original Raiser, his R could mean A-T, 6-6, KK or AA. We just don't have much to go on, do we? We have MUCH more info on those who acted behind.

2) I never knew the player, so no clues there, either.

3) I was in good shape, & this was a huge risk, based on very little info. I think I can play my way to this Final.

4) I generally shy away from big boom crash bang multi-way hands. Many successful players do the opposite, & accumulate mountains of chips. Good Luck to them, but it ain't for me.

5) In an ideal world, we'd never see a flop, we'd win them all pre flop. We can't lose if we don't see a flop. It ain't an ideal world, but even so, I try to take my Pots quick & early, & if everyone is intent on colliding head-in in Pots time after time, fine, I let them, & am happy to sit back & watch. I want small Pots, lots of them, & without flops if poss.

6) I was facing two players, neither of whom I knew. I reasoned I could well be facing EITHER an overpair, an Overpair & two overs, or two "two overs". I'm thin against that lot if I'm right. And do I need to take this gamble, here & now? I thoight I could find a better spot.

7) My strength is my weakness. I avoid confrontation as much as I can, I dodge bullets, I prefer small uncontested pots than big boomers. I can accumulate chips safer that way, little "orphan" pots (nobody wants them, I'll take 'em with position), so if I meet strong resistance, I think very carefully, because I think I can get there by an easier route if I take my time. The problem with this is that I go deeper, & make more Finals, than most players. But I get there low-chipped invariably, & my Database is littered with minor cashes, because I don't have enough chips to "play" when the Blinds get big. I have altered the balance a bit this year, I'm less conservative, and as a result, I have made less Finals, but I've finished much higher. My last 5 fessie Cashes have been 1st, 5th, 3rd 2nd, 1st, & I won three small Events in Vegas. Am I better off though? I'm not sure. I don't set out to win Tourneys, I set out to win enough cash to continue playing Tourneys. (OK, OK, fire away!). There are plenty of Multi-Winners on the Circuit right now who have to borrow the Entry Fee to their Tournaments. I don't borrow to play, it's my money, & I guard it with my life. It's a balance thing.

My comments refer to my Tourney play, I play Cash totally different, almost the very opposite.

Now, the hand. With hindsight, I think I shoulda called to see the Flop. As it happens, I'd have probably had to let go, (which is not relevant in the decision process Pre) but of course, the Ten Rivered.

At Walsall, in th £300, I made the same mistake, of saying to myself, "it's PASS or RAISE", when in fact I should have Called. (With JJ). The flop came A-Q -x, & that's then an easy Pass. Instead, I gambled my whole Tourney on either getting him to Pass (his AQ as it happened, which he called my massive RR Pre with) or taking a coin-flip. I don't WANT coin-flips! I've been indoctrinated by the conventional "Raise or Pass, don't Call" thinking, & I now realise that's sometimes wrong.
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2007, 02:12:45 AM »

Ok, well the result of this particular hand has been revealed and I am under no illusions that it could very well have swung either way. I know that the way I approached this hand would certainly be categorized as high risk.

I am a tight aggressive player and so like Tikay don't advocate wanging huge chunks of chips about on a regular basis. This will more often than not lead to disaster. In this hand I am not particularly happy about pushing all-in with the 10's...I would prefer not to...but feel compelled to. I do believe in the adage that to win a big pot you must commit a lot of chips though and I'm not adverse to winning a big pot or two.

I have two basic tournament principles that compel me to play the hand this way

Firstly, I want to win. But this is not a bolshy I want to win...to show I'm the best or anything like that...I just think that this is a pure way to play the game and it makes decisions easier for me. Whatever the result I am always satisfied with my attempts to do my best to play the game as well as I can. In order to win...the game requires me to accumulate all the chips in play...so I never have feelings of being satisfied with my current chip count. If I don't have them all I still have work to do. So I tend to approach every situation without worries of losing what I have....because what I have isn't enough.

Secondly, and most impotantly, I have one fear playing poker, and that is missing the opportunities that present themselves to me. To miss an opportunity is to not play the game as well as I could. I may not get an opportunity in 3 hours and will sit there waiting patiently for it, but at other times I may get a flurry of opportunities all at once. I feel that it is my job to recognise those opportunities and take advantage of them no matter how tough they may be. So my approach will constantly change dependant upon each unique situation. If the game requires me to risk 1k I will do it and if the game requires me to risk everything I will do it. Often I hear myself say "I have to call" when faced with a big decision.

The thing that strikes me most about poker is that people worry. This is why bubble situations are so profitable for aggressive players. I like to exploit this worry. So while many will worry what hand the other players might hold in this example I just do what I think is right. When you get a big stack you can't be knocked out so you are free from the shackles of worry and so I don't think fretting about what could be out there is a productive thought process. I illustrated many scenarios where I would fold the 10s but all things considered my instincts compel me to push here. Like I said I feel a whole lot worse folding a winning hand and missing an opportunity than loosing a pot. I have often missed a big opportunity because I have talked myself out of it only to dribble out to a dissappointing finish a few hours later...and this isn't a conclusion I enjoy much.
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« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2007, 02:45:29 AM »

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought

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« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2007, 02:58:48 AM »

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought



GREAT point Phil.

Online, I push for sure, there's another comp a-waiting if I bust out.

But Luton is around 2 hours drive each-way, & so I play much more conservatively.

How daft is that? It's true though.

 scared
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« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2007, 03:00:19 AM »

Of course, if I'd gone the Mantis Route & pushed, I'd have collected a monster pot.

I can't actually recall if I even finalled or not.
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« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2007, 03:03:46 AM »

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought



GREAT point Phil.

Online, I push for sure, there's another comp a-waiting if I bust out.

But Luton is around 2 hours drive each-way, & so I play much more conservatively.

How daft is that? It's true though.

 scared

Thats exactly what I was thinking, and Im worried that that shouldnt be the case.
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« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2007, 03:07:37 AM »

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought



GREAT point Phil.

Online, I push for sure, there's another comp a-waiting if I bust out.

But Luton is around 2 hours drive each-way, & so I play much more conservatively.

How daft is that? It's true though.

 scared

Thats exactly what I was thinking, and Im worried that that shouldnt be the case.

It should not be the case, but it is. (With me). I need to get it out of my fat head somehow I guuess. It's why I so rarely bust early, too. I think, "ooh, I've driven al this way, I'm having a ball, great table banter, I don't wanna risk busting yet". Daft, I know. Then, when I end up low-chipped, it's push with anything time. Fascinating, this game's twists & turns.
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