Hand of the Week: September 17th

[totalise]

hi all,

thanks for the responses, good stuff so far:

With regards to the squeeze play, I think the better your opponents are post-flop, the less likely you should be to want to play out of position. They can exploit it very well, and it gives you headaches. Obviously the main problem with this is that it kinda makes it hard for you to play great hands oop coz your lack of re-raising previous kinda telegraphs your hand, so you should defo be raising here occasionally, but as a stock play, I agree that calling is prolly best. However, the worse the players are, the less you want to worry about position in spots like this, because being in the SB, you have first action on the flop, and if they are only playing a "fit or fold" strategy, ie, they only call the flop if they hit it in someway, then your positional disadvantage isn't anywhere near as troublesome as it would be against good players... and having a tilt monkey on the table fits this dynamic a lot better.

As for the guy not rebuying, experience tells me that they are usually not regular players, as most of them are auto-reloadin every time they are even 1~~4bb under the max buyin, so whilst its not a cast-iron read, its definately useful to help you with your decision making.

Now with regards to the flop, as i said before, the interesting thing here is that the only way to play this hand wrong is to either open fold, or check-fold on the flop, so whatever you do will make money, so looking at the options, they are generally:

a) check, and push if someone bets...
b) check, and call if someone bets
c) bet, and push if someone raises
c) bet, and call if someone pushes

Given the dynamic of the table, if someone bets and someone else calls before the action gets onto you, then i dont know how much fold equity you have in this spot, and it doesnt really matter as you are an equity favorite over almost any range, as alex alluded to earlier, but maybe its more profitable to just call along, and then put more money into the pot if/when you make your hand. Its not like you really need to worry about reverse implied odds here if you keep it multiway, because any hand that might make a better hand then yours isn't folding if you push anyways, so calling can keep in worse draws/made hands that might stack off if you make your hand, but fold if you push. Thats pretty much what I was thinking at the time at least. Against good players, I would defo just look for a way to shovel the money in on the flop, but given this table, I wasnt 100% sure it was the very best way to play it.

[totalise]

OK, so The first post in the thread details the flop action/stack sizes etc, this is the next part of the play through.

Action: Hero checked (pot $210), UTG fired in a $190 bet, Cutoff folds,  Button timed down for a while before just calling, and then the action came back to hero:

Taking account stack sizes, and the action so far, how have your considerations changed with regards to the best way to play the hand, if at all, and what do you do in this spot?

Action: Hero just called


Turn was the Jack of clubs, to give a board of (pot $780)… action is on you:

How good or bad is this turned pair for your hand given the flop action/reads, and what do you do? What are the pros and cons of a “blocking bet” in this spot? Coz that’s what hero did!

Action: Hero bets $225,  UTG amazingly folds, and the button min-raises to $450

Remaining stack sizes are hero with just under $1k,  the button covers, and the pot is $1,455:

Roughly, how often do you think button folds if we push, , how often do you think button would stack off If we make our flush on the river, and how often will our straight be good if the 8 comes? And what do you do? And why?

River play to come on friday

[boldie]

The first thought I had was "why bet out here?" ..and then I got cranky

Your hand didn't really change as you are essentially still looking for a King (which would now give you the second nuts and you'd chop it with any Q that's out there), 8 or a heart.

Like I said the action (check call) on the flop screams FD which is why someone can reraise you. UTG probably doesn't fold because you bet out but he folds because Button boy is still in the hand.

To answer your questions below

a; You won't get any action if the heart comes down as your entire betting pattern screams of the hand you have (maybe AJ hearts even)

B; Your straight would split with any Q and to me button has QQ or a set.

I just don't like the way you played this at all..if you hadn't posted your hole cards here I think 7 out of 10 players would have guessed what sort of hand you're on..Your betting screams it...it is unbelievably bad play with the hand you have in my humble opinion.

If I had played my JQ like this (and I have done so on many a occasion to be honest) I would almost be beyond caring as to what else to do with my money in this hand and just lump it all in now..screw it...just give it away here and reraise all in..


call and pray you hit..check-fold if the river doesn't bring you what it needs to bring you and go to the cash machine..take out 200£ and flush it down the toilet..then ask www.toiletpoker.com/forum if you flushed it properly.
You're telegraphed your hand beautifully so button would have to be a complete donk to not put you on a Jack with the flush draw.


(Forgive me but I've given up smoking so I'm a  tad cranky and therefore a bit more outspoken/ruder than I ussually am with things that only annoy me slightly..I'm hoping to be over that crankyness by the time of BB5 and will buy you a beer to apologize but this really drives me nuts. You're not a bad player and this simply can not be found to be the right play by anyone..even your good self.)

[totalise]

I just don't like the way you played this at all..if you hadn't posted your hole cards here I think 7 out of 10 players would have guessed what sort of hand you're on..Your betting screams it...it is unbelievably bad play with the hand you have in my humble opinion.

of course, but when ur at a table with a steamer and someone that probably doesn't play too good, how important is this? thats one thing that is interesting here. If I had a table full of pabs and Geeforce's, I'd defo play it different. Situational poker and all that

If I had played my JQ like this (and I have done so on many a occasion to be honest) I would almost be beyond caring as to what else to do with my money in this hand and just lump it all in now..screw it...just give it away here and reraise all in..

lol

[AlexMartin]

", because any hand that might make a better hand then yours isn't folding if you push anyways, so calling can keep in worse draws/made hands that might stack off if you make your hand, but fold if you push"

I honestly think you lose money by flat calling on the flop. Heart comes only a moron is gonna give you action and gives you problems if you pair one of your hole cards on the turn, as in this example. Hands that might make a better hand than yours are prolly folding i reckon. Nut flush draw might pass to large c/r ai on flop- if the betting goes as played, he wont be getting anywhere near 3-1.

As played on the turn you have a horrible position. He prolly has either 10J or (more likely) 89. I doubt you get paid if a heart comes and you need to ding a K or 8 to scoop here. But obv you have to call now, ur getting the right price for a pure heart draw, add a possible 6 (poss even 9) outs and keep being a station

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I would have committed myself on the flop here, $190 with $450 or something like that, calling any shove.

[doubleup]

I do think we have some fold equity here.  Players like the button sometimes miniraise with a hand that is nowhere near the nuts, in this case prob 2 pr but might be as little as KJ.  So I think we can get a fold at least 20% of the time when he has 1 pr.  I also like pushing for future payoffs vs the button.  So its push for me. 

[geeforce1]

i am never squeezing pf. UTG will call with any hand that dominates. def value in the call tho.
on the flop its a check raise for me, not allin, but commiting myslef. with huge draws its far better to build a pot with 2 cards to come than with 1. yes u may kill your action, but also you may prevent your action being killed when you complete a flush and scare off 1/2pair. it gives you more chances to win the pot and maximises pot sizes at a showdown.

[totalise]

i am never squeezing pf. UTG will call with any hand that dominates. def value in the call tho.
on the flop its a check raise for me, not allin, but commiting myslef. with huge draws its far better to build a pot with 2 cards to come than with 1. yes u may kill your action, but also you may prevent your action being killed when you complete a flush and scare off 1/2pair. it gives you more chances to win the pot and maximises pot sizes at a showdown.

what do you do if you get called on the flop and the turn is a blank in this spot? (assuming button is the caller) you have abot 1k left on the turn, just shovel it in?

[AlexMartin]

i am never squeezing pf. UTG will call with any hand that dominates. def value in the call tho.
on the flop its a check raise for me, not allin, but commiting myslef. with huge draws its far better to build a pot with 2 cards to come than with 1. yes u may kill your action, but also you may prevent your action being killed when you complete a flush and scare off 1/2pair. it gives you more chances to win the pot and maximises pot sizes at a showdown.

what do you do if you get called on the flop and the turn is a blank in this spot? (assuming button is the caller) you have abot 1k left on the turn, just shovel it in?

thats the prob i have with this line.

[totalise]

OK, final part of this HotW… Action was you just called the minraise

River was the , makeing a final board of      (pot $1680)  and the action is on you:

Given the turn play, what line do you take here? What kinda hands would you assign him based on his mini raise on the turn?

Action: You checked, and villain again times down before betting $400.

with just under $1k remaining in your stack before the river action how good/bad is the river check, and is this a trivial value raise?

good comments all, and the reveal to come on Sunday. This wasnt one of the better hands ever played, that much is true lol

[AlexMartin]

In terms of long-term equity, i think ship has the best results. He obv has a big hand, you just have to hope he has folding issues.

[TightEnd]

I like the check on the river from you here. Given you have telegraphed your hand all the way through like Telly Telegraph winner of last year's Mr Telegraph of the Year competition, at least it introduces a bit more confusion to him that a mere value bet

He bets, he must think he's value betting, hopefully not with  . I think I have him on KQ actually judging from a turn mini raise.

I ship it in now, and trust he has enough, both in terms of a hand and in terms of curiousity to call

[Flea]

Definitely ship it and hope for a call, if he does have 2 hearts with 1 higher than yours then that's just real bad luck. In this situation ev for shipping must be quite high compared to any other action.

[boldie]

you have to get your chips in here I think..folding is once again disgraceful and flatcalling is bordering on cowardice..(although as the hand played out he MUST know you have the FD so thinking he would only bet here with a better Flush than you has some value as a train of thought) You can't mess the hand up any more than you've already done...as long as you don't fold here you're doing the right thing