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Author Topic: Hand of the Week: October 1st  (Read 6269 times)
totalise
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« on: October 01, 2007, 02:13:14 AM »

Hi All, for this weeks HotW we will be trying a bit of Heads Up action as a lot of members play this a fair bit and it should be an interesting hand to discuss:

The stakes are $2/$4 NL, and it’s a Heads up table on full-tilt.

Relevant Notes:

We have been battling for about 55 minutes, just on this table. Both villains and heros stack comes from heros money, Hero dropped 2 buyins early on, one with a flush draw vs a set, and the other with QQ vs top 2 on a 783 flop. Hero has steadily chopped at villains stack to recoup some of the money, to where the stacks are at the moment.

Reads:

Villain:  $976

As is typical in HU poker, villain is very active in opening from the button, roughly 80% of the time the villain has opened, and defends against a re-raise from the big blind with impunity. He tends to make thin calls when he thinks he is ahead, but also has shown signs that he will slowplay if he thinks hero is going to launch into the pots. Overall impression of him is that he a typical probably-winning HU player, that has a problem with folding when the pots get large and channelling his aggression.

Hero:  $624

Hero has been re-raising from the BB with a high frequency, almost too much to be profitable, which has led to playing too many inflated pots OOP.  In the last 10 minutes you have been a lot more passive from the BB, just calling instead of re-raising, and this has enabled you to control the size of the pots a bit better. Your play from the button is similar to villains, but you defend a re-raise with a lower frequency. Villain has told you in chat that he sees you as a “calling station donkey” and that you will be “broke in 2 weeks if you keep on playing him”

Onto the Hand:


THE FLOP:


Hero has

Villain makes it $12 from the button, and the action is on hero.

What kind of range do you figure is optimal with regards to defending your blind in HU poker? In general does passive play against aggressive players reap a bigger profit then being aggressive with them? And finally, What do you do here?

Action, hero calls: pot ($24)

Flop comes down:

Action is on you.

Given the wide range of the button with regards to raising, what kinda line do you think will reap the most profit in this spot? Given reads, if you got your stack in here on the flop, how often do you think you would be winning? And finally, what do you do?

Action: hero, checks, and villain bets $23…..


taking the previous questions into account, what plan do you have here for the rest of the hand? and what do you do?


More to come on Wednesday!
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boldie
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2007, 05:36:06 PM »

interesting one.

Regarding the range..well suited connectors (even low ones) are definetly in them for me..I consider them Gold Dust HU. preferably in position but OK.
Regarding the play..you have to be seen as somewhat loose but against an overly aggresive player (overly being the operative word there) I prefer a Tag approach (or as Tag as you can get HU)

Call pre flop is fine by me. I'd call aswell if I was playing as hero was against this villain.

I lead out on the flop about 90% of the time here. This is the flop you are looking for..can't do much better than hitting two pair so fire in a bet..16$ is nice. I expect his to re-raise here and that's what I'm hoping for. This is exactly the sort of hand you can murder an overly agressive player on cus he won't take you for two pair here and he himself definetly doesn't need to have the made straight on the flop to get plenty of chips in the middle with.
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snoopy1239
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2007, 01:04:41 AM »

What kind of range do you figure is optimal with regards to defending your blind in HU poker? In general does passive play against aggressive players reap a bigger profit then being aggressive with them? And finally, What do you do here?

If he has been active pre-flop then you call here with any two cards. I'd rather call here than re-raise as those moves have been called and forced you to play big pots out of position.

Given the wide range of the button with regards to raising, what kinda line do you think will reap the most profit in this spot? Given reads, if you got your stack in here on the flop, how often do you think you would be winning? And finally, what do you do?

I prefer to bet here and hope he raises so I can re-raise and try to win it there and then. Your hand is pretty vulnerable on that Flop to not protect it. Get cute and it could cost you your stack or at least slow down the action card if a danger card hits.

taking the previous questions into account, what plan do you have here for the rest of the hand? and what do you do?

Big raise from me. Proceed with caution on further streets.
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madasahatstand
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2007, 01:39:23 PM »

What kind of range do you figure is optimal with regards to defending your blind in HU poker? In general does passive play against aggressive players reap a bigger profit then being aggressive with them? And finally, what do you do here?

I’ve never given much serious thought to it but my range in HU for defending my BB is not going to be in the same range as a 6 or 9 seat table because there is less chance of one person being able to bust me than potentially 6 or 9.  I reckon I’m playing small pockets, suited connectors and any ace or higher.

You said that when you were being more aggressive 80% of the time, he was beating you, most likely with the RR when you were OOP. But for 10mins you have chilled out and just call to control the pot. If you start playing aggressive here again, it’s likely he’s going to fold more, but I’m worried that he’s got you on the ropes by now with his bullying. I know you have not asked this but I’d be looking for a way to take back the power and stop him being so aggressive. A few all ins perhaps?

In general, I would say playing a more passive game and letting the villan raise into me would be a good way to get his chips. If you are aggressive, you are going to put yourself into a spot where you have nothing, then try to steal, then get into big trouble. Being an aggressive HU player myself, I much prefer a passive opponent because they don’t really take a lot of chances and rely on hitting cards. Watch passive players though. They sit for 20mins playing nothing so you think ‘aye aye’ when they do raise, but this is a good tact for building table image and taking the odd pot with a steal. Being aggressive will get more chips into the pot but you need to consider whether your opponent is a risk taker or fold 9/10 times with a raise.

I’d call if this is the standard bet amount he has been doing.

Action, hero calls: pot ($24)

Flop comes down:   

Action is on you.

Given the wide range of the button with regards to raising, what kinda line do you think will reap the most profit in this spot? Given reads, if you got your stack in here on the flop, how often do you think you would be winning? And finally, what do you do?


I’m thinking that I want him to get all his chips in the middle because 2 pair HU is a great hand and I’m winning a very high % of the time. Now I know he likes defend his hand so for me my options are;

Check = low risk of losing chips/low gain if he doesn’t bet.  If he does bet, I’m calling because a RR might put him off with your original check. Remember he thinks you are a calling station not a re-raiser so this is a good way to pull him in to the pot = low risk losing chips/high gain if he bets your check.

Bet say half the pot = low risk losing chips because we got a great hand and want him in the pot. Does he think I’m a weakling and will try a small bet to put him off? I reckon he will call or RR a small bet so this option is looking good. Low risk losing/high gain advantage

Bet the pot or more – he might fold as you have been a bit more passive in the last 10 mins = low risk losing chips/low chip gain

Action: hero, checks, and villain bets $23…..


taking the previous questions into account, what plan do you have here for the rest of the hand? and what do you do?

Well looking at the options I laid down for myself, I’m probably calling the bet because he thinks I’m a calling station and probably on a draw. A RR is going to get him thinking and he will likely be a bit more nervous and fold. I suppose the bottom line here is whether you think you are ahead. If you feel you are ahead even with the other cards to come, then sucking him in is the best option. With a guy like this it’s almost impossible to tell what he has given his play previously and his aggression.
Call = low risk losing chips/ high gain should he come back and RR you.
Re-raise = higher potential chip loss but we are confident of our cards so this makes for him either folding = ceiling on the chip gain; calling which I doubt this character is going to do, or RR and you got him but I don’t think he’s going to do this.

All things told, I’m calling to extract max value.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 01:41:45 PM by madasahatstand » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2007, 01:44:42 PM »

I think I'm putting in a biggish check raise here

Firstly I have a vulnerable hand that can be counterfieted easily, and with his raising range being wide it will be tricky for me to get off my hand. Whilst maximising value is great, taking it down here isn't the worst result in the world

but look at his opinion of you..you are a "donkey"...he's not passing much to the check raise or putting you on a strong hand here is he?..check raising here might be the way to extract the maximum!
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 01:54:19 PM »

I think I'm putting in a biggish check raise here

Firstly I have a vulnerable hand that can be counterfieted easily, and with his raising range being wide it will be tricky for me to get off my hand. Whilst maximising value is great, taking it down here isn't the worst result in the world

but look at his opinion of you..you are a "donkey"...he's not passing much to the check raise or putting you on a strong hand here is he?..check raising here might be the way to extract the maximum!

yes makes sense but you have been playing more passively for 10mins, so dont you think  a CR is going to put him off? He can always get you the next time when you dont have a hand.  I mean its fine if you want to take the pot down here and now but for maximum value, keep playing like a calling station. I reckon the hand is great and im pretty confident about it. that being said, its in these spots i lose most of my chips.......lol  This is the good thing about these analysis threads. gets you thinking out of your own box:)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 02:14:57 PM by madasahatstand » Logged

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madasahatstand
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 02:13:44 PM »

interesting one.


I lead out on the flop about 90% of the time here. This is the flop you are looking for..can't do much better than hitting two pair so fire in a bet..16$ is nice. I expect his to re-raise here and that's what I'm hoping for.
If he does the RR here then he's going to have  some doubts at the back of his mind when you call or go all in.  So its likely if he has nothing, he's not going to give any more action after this. The only way you are ever going to maximise your profit here is when he has an over pair or better. I doubt he has.  You didnt say what you would do if he RR?  If you RR again, i think thats the max value gotten. If he thinks you are waiting to hit, hes going to keep raising. If you call you tell him you need a hit. If you bet, you are telling him you might have a hand already


This is exactly the sort of hand you can murder an overly agressive player on cus he won't take you for two pair here and he himself definetly doesn't need to have the made straight on the flop to get plenty of chips in the middle with.

no he doesnt need a straight to get his chips in but you got to make sure you keep telling him you have a draw. even the most aggressive players know when to give it up, and as i said earlier, its usually when the passive player (and we have been for 10 mins) make any kind of bet or r.

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AlexMartin
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 03:00:00 PM »

I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 03:01:35 PM »

maybe so, but hero has checked post flop already.......so the option is check call or check raise
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madasahatstand
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 03:02:37 PM »

I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.

what about the check call?
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2007, 04:55:23 PM »

Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198
Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=27773.msg566702#msg566702 date=1191333600]
I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.

what about the check call?

This board is too dangerous for the checkcall as there are a million and one straight draws out there. I want people to pay for hitting against me when I think I'm ahead. This board is way to dangerous to be cute and slowplay by check calling. Check -raising is OK but I don't think it's the best way to maximize the hand.

If you lead out here he can re-raise you to 75'ish..I re-raise that on this flop. I have a big hand but I am out of position and if any of the straight cards come down (and there's an amazing 12 of them, although admittedly the Ace is not that big of a scarecard from a straight perspective as him holding a 2 is a fairly remote possibility) I have no chance of winning the pot.


The chips go in on the flop for me
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boldie
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2007, 05:01:48 PM »

maybe so, but hero has checked post flop already.......so the option is check call or check raise

ok fair point..but the discussion nover whether that's the best play here or not is one of the most interesting here. The flop play on a board like this is everything I think.

but to answer..I call here..I don't like the check raise as your oppo is likely to call knowing you'd need a very big hand to not lay it down if a scare card comes. If you were to check-raise to 75$ and I was on the button I would call it on this board and hope for a 2-6 or 7..even if you hold trips (because why would you check raise with a straight on this board? so there's no way anyone would put you on that) you would have to lay it down when I ask you to stick all your 600$ in..and Lordie knows I would either on the turn or river..and that would mean you just lost control of the pot AND stuck more money in.

After you checked it just call and hope a scare card doesn't come down. (UNLESS, you do what Mad said a few posts back and that's move all-in here..that way you don't have any questions to ask yourself and he has to ask himself a big one..I personally wouldn't advocate that as it would be risking a lot of chips to win but a few but I'd prefer that to check-raising to 70'ish.
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madasahatstand
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2007, 05:21:01 PM »

Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198
Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=27773.msg566702#msg566702 date=1191333600]
I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.

what about the check call?

This board is too dangerous for the checkcall as there are a million and one straight draws out there. I want people to pay for hitting against me when I think I'm ahead. This board is way to dangerous to be cute and slowplay by check calling. Check -raising is OK but I don't think it's the best way to maximize the hand.

You see this is maybe my problem. i know he could have anything really, but in my head im fixed on the fact he has nothing. well maybe an over pair or AK- A-anything.  Im taking the chance that he's being aggressive and knows he can shake me offdown the line. this really is something i need to work on cause once i get that 'gut feeling'about someones hand, i dont reallly let it go.

If you lead out here he can re-raise you to 75'ish..I re-raise that on this flop. I have a big hand but I am out of position and if any of the straight cards come down (and there's an amazing 12 of them, although admittedly the Ace is not that big of a scarecard from a straight perspective as him holding a 2 is a fairly remote possibility) I have no chance of winning the pot.

Yup I can see why you would play it like that and its good advice to take the pot down but, this guy most likely looks at the board cards and makes his moves as if he was playing without looking at the hole cards. Its how I play aggressive HU. Doesnt matter what my cards are, its how I play the board. cant wait too see what the turn brings:)


The chips go in on the flop for me
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boldie
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2007, 05:29:37 PM »

Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198
Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=27773.msg566702#msg566702 date=1191333600]
I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.

what about the check call?

This board is too dangerous for the checkcall as there are a million and one straight draws out there. I want people to pay for hitting against me when I think I'm ahead. This board is way to dangerous to be cute and slowplay by check calling. Check -raising is OK but I don't think it's the best way to maximize the hand.

You see this is maybe my problem. i know he could have anything really, but in my head im fixed on the fact he has nothing. well maybe an over pair or AK- A-anything.  Im taking the chance that he's being aggressive and knows he can shake me offdown the line. this really is something i need to work on cause once i get that 'gut feeling'about someones hand, i dont reallly let it go.

If you lead out here he can re-raise you to 75'ish..I re-raise that on this flop. I have a big hand but I am out of position and if any of the straight cards come down (and there's an amazing 12 of them, although admittedly the Ace is not that big of a scarecard from a straight perspective as him holding a 2 is a fairly remote possibility) I have no chance of winning the pot.

Yup I can see why you would play it like that and its good advice to take the pot down but, this guy most likely looks at the board cards and makes his moves as if he was playing without looking at the hole cards. Its how I play aggressive HU. Doesnt matter what my cards are, its how I play the board. cant wait too see what the turn brings:)


The chips go in on the flop for me

ok I see where you're coming from there but pre-flop he might also have had nothing to actually re-raise with..this includes cards that would actually hit if the straight comes down. and he's still likely to reraise us if we lead out. If he then folds to us reraising him again he will have put more chips in than he would if we checkcalled him..probably the same than if we checkraise him and he flat calls that BUTwe are making him make the decision and out of position HU that's taking one of his big advantages away.

I don't mind playing as if my cards don't matter..but only when I'm in position. If you play like that out of position against a good HU player he might absolutely murder you..position is everything on a board like this


*edit...turn could be very interesting though...
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2007, 05:42:07 PM »

Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198
Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=27773.msg566702#msg566702 date=1191333600]
I think the check raise is way too defensive here and opens up opportunities for your opponent to outplay you. Lead flop, let him raise, then you can stick it up him.

what about the check call?

This board is too dangerous for the checkcall as there are a million and one straight draws out there. I want people to pay for hitting against me when I think I'm ahead. This board is way to dangerous to be cute and slowplay by check calling. Check -raising is OK but I don't think it's the best way to maximize the hand.

You see this is maybe my problem. i know he could have anything really, but in my head im fixed on the fact he has nothing. well maybe an over pair or AK- A-anything.  Im taking the chance that he's being aggressive and knows he can shake me offdown the line. this really is something i need to work on cause once i get that 'gut feeling'about someones hand, i dont reallly let it go.

If you lead out here he can re-raise you to 75'ish..I re-raise that on this flop. I have a big hand but I am out of position and if any of the straight cards come down (and there's an amazing 12 of them, although admittedly the Ace is not that big of a scarecard from a straight perspective as him holding a 2 is a fairly remote possibility) I have no chance of winning the pot.

Yup I can see why you would play it like that and its good advice to take the pot down but, this guy most likely looks at the board cards and makes his moves as if he was playing without looking at the hole cards. Its how I play aggressive HU. Doesnt matter what my cards are, its how I play the board. cant wait too see what the turn brings:)


The chips go in on the flop for me

ok I see where you're coming from there but pre-flop he might also have had nothing to actually re-raise with..this includes cards that would actually hit if the straight comes down. and he's still likely to reraise us if we lead out. If he then folds to us reraising him again he will have put more chips in than he would if we checkcalled him..probably the same than if we checkraise him and he flat calls that BUTwe are making him make the decision and out of position HU that's taking one of his big advantages away.

I don't mind playing as if my cards don't matter..but only when I'm in position. If you play like that out of position against a good HU player he might absolutely murder you..position is everything on a board like this


*edit...turn could be very interesting though...
i like your part about making him make the decisions. i dont think that he is auto RR if we lead though given our last 10 mins of passivity?    could be wrong though.
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