Cash Games - "Live Straddles"

[tikay]

My question was "loaded", and I want to await more feedback before commenting too much, but I could not disagree more with your summing up Mr Tank The Dad Sir, & you have missed the point.

It's got nothing to do with "comfort-zone", it's got to do with + & - EV.

Everything is about EV of course, but sometimes pushing otherwise good players into playing a game they don't want to, (or forcing them out of playing the sort of game they do want to) can affect your EV to the good.



Consider this....

3 other players with me at the table
Blinds are £1/£1

- A young guy, probably a better player than me. Certainly capable of making better reads. Although I know he is currently shortrolled due to leaks.

- A foreign chap, extremely passive calling station and sitting on a monster stack having gotten rather fortunate. He is having fun, independantly wealthy, but that stack at least will be gone by the end of the night.

- A mad guy doing his bollox, spunking buy-in after buy-in trying to build a stack and get out of a hole. He is straddling every hand, and encouraging the obedient foreign chap to do the same.


I know there's a huge probability the money is going to either me or the young guy (or both) by the time the sun comes up.

I choose to straddle, as a result double straddles are possible to my left.
The amount of money in the pot pre-flop before cards are dealt has increased by an average 67% from what it would be if I didn't straddle, the amount of actual money it takes to see a flop increases by a whole lot more than that.

The young guy has £300 left, and ideally wants to see flops for under £5 not over £20. It only costs him £2 a round, so he decides to wait for his moment and a big pair rather than risk a significant portion of his bankroll with a narrower edge.

Looking at the young guys game, as the only player in the game not straddling, of course he is +EV to wait for Kings. He can sit back and listen to his i-pod and make a profit, good for him. However, he would be massively more +EV in a game where he can afford to see flops and value bet his way through the foreigners £1,500 stack quickly and efficiently.

As poker is a zero sum game, his loss is indirectly (but not too indirectly) my gain. I can play pots that, although large with smaller edge per hand, are very numerous and against two predicatable players.
The free money from the foreigner is only available for a very limited time, Once his massive stack inevitably dissapears, the game will likely break up.

A rather specific situation, but I'm just making the point that a policy of never straddling can be as silly as a policy of always straddling.I will concede that straddling is typically a -EV play though.

I buy that. But it's only in the most specific & special circumstances that I will ever straddle, "if the cap fits". Mostly, I'm happy to let the loons do their thing. I'll call Straddles, Raise them, but I won't (generally) do them myself. As I said at the start, I don't see the point. And neither, imo, do most of those that Straddle, but they've seen others do it, & think it's the thing to do - or they just wanna play Bingo. And, of course, prove how much money they are prepared to lose by, in effect, betting Blind. I can outplay most who Raise it up Blind......

[RED-DOG]

Consider this, You straddle all night and win a small fortune. As you are leaving the card room, a small meteorite manages to penetrate the earth's atmosphere directly above you. By some miracle you are not killed, but the heat sets fire to your wallet......

[AlexMartin]

I have to agree with  Jim 77Dave here. Straddles help to show the table you are prepared to gamble and shorthanded can be used to make moves from loose LP raisers.

[Longy]

I don't play alot of live cash truth be told. I don't straddle when I do play, I really don't get why you would want to generally. You are in effect putting another blind in, so we have a situation where we have sb,bb and even bigger big blind. If you sat down in a game and you could choose any position you wanted, you aren't going to choose the big blind are you, but by putting the straddle on thats what you are doing once every orbit.

It does change your image but as with every image in poker you can exploit it to your advantage and do so without having to give away a ton equity every orbit. I accept there are special circumstances but as Tikay it seems to be a dick waving contest to me.

[Horneris]

I prefer not to straddle when i play cash. Usually im sat with around £100 when some are sat with as much as £300 (not all)

Its a bit of a cray game and the straddle can sometimes reach as high as £8 and £16, and this is a £1/£1 game. Im more than happy for others to do this, as when i get my Queens, Kings & Aces, the AK, maybe even Jacks or AQ, its + ev for me, as theyll nearly always fold round to the straddler who will look a bit embarrassed and fold anyway.

Last week i got it all in with Kings v Ace 4 for a £300+ pot. I lost, as i flop bad with Kings v Ace x, but thats not the point.

No-one abuses me for not straddling but thats probs as its a very friendly game and theyre are a couple of others who dont.

I definetly prefer to adobt a very tight image and in a loose 9-10 handed game where the pots are raked for table fees, i think its a pretty easy way of making a profit a lot of the time.

[boldie]

There is a BIG difference between the UTG straddle (which only doubles the BB and which can be used to your advantage when you make them) and the double,triple,quadruple idiot straddles TK seems to mainly be talking about.

Creating action for a round or two is not a bad thing..Tank is right that when everybody is sitting very deep it's hard to get the entire stack in the middle and "building the pot a bit" can help you get peoples entire stack (or for you to lose yours obviously).

the ones where the "straddle" goes through 3/4 or even 5 people is simply a joke for gamblers

[LuckyLloyd]

Because they wish to encourage good poker.

I've only read the thread up to the above post but Christ Tikay, stop!! The most excellent and obvious reason for a club to disallow straddling is for the same reasons that UK and Irish clubs will generally spread a pot limit game first - people will go broke slower and pay rake for longer.

Much as voluntarily straddling is definitely -EV for players (why do you want to put more money into a pot blind and oop?); it is astoundingly -EV for cardclubs. Plus consider that people who like to straddle will still play if the club prohibits it. The dude who likes a friendly game and doesn't play to be pushed around or bullied may not return.

Any club may pay lipservice about good poker - but saying no to straddles is an excellent business decision first and foremost.

[LuckyLloyd]

Also, for all those who say straddling is a good thing please consider that:

- Playing out of position is bad;
- Applying a straddle doubles the blinds and halves the effective stacks;

Why is halving the effective stack depth beneficial to you if you have a perceived skill edge? You may take people out of their financial comfort zone to some extent (but consider that they put the money in front of them in play and you can't change the total that is at risk). But you are also cutting the difficulty of their later street decisions in half because there is less money left to go in on the later streets. The less total blinds in play on a table the greater the effect of luck on the outcome of a session.

But thats just it with straddling - and Tikay is probably spot on. People who do it and demand it of others at a table are the same type of people who overestimate their edge and fail to notice when they have actually become the value at a table. By the sounds of it, players who straddle and defend the straddle generally believe themselves to be better than the opposition. But even if that is true, an insistence on playing big pots oop on a consistent basis and lowering the average stack to pot ratio for the entire table is a great way to level the playing field and give your supposed inferior opponents a helping hand.

But then conquering your ego and honestly assessing your abillity is something most players will never achieve. And misunderstanding what poker is fundamentally about and how to identify and capitalise on +EV spots is what sperates winners from losers in the longterm.

I will rarely straddle - and make a particular point of not doing so when the rest of the table is. Sure, it shows them that I'm not there to gamble. But its true, I'm there to win. And if the rest of the table is playing big pot poker and voluntarily juicing it up oop then there is no reason to fear. You'll be paid off by someone when the time comes.

LIVE CASH LOL.

[Nilawina]

I play in casinos/private games in the North West where a live straddle is allowed from any position.  I mostly play dealers choice where in the flop games (omaha/O8) the late postion straddle can definately be a +EV play.

In these games a strong hand will not raise from early position as much as in hold em as no hands are as big a favourite then big pairs are in texas.

I'm presuming, in Luton and other casinos, only the UTG has 1st option to straddle and so on. I take it you don't allow the late position or button straddle that i'm used to?

[ACE2M]

If i perceive my edge to be big, which it is in most of the live cash games i play (not being conceited i just like to play against loose idiots), i am more than happy to take on the responsibility of turning a cautious/tight game into a bet fest by making lots of pre flop raises and straddles and double straddles for as long as i think it is required to get a game going that i know i am very likely to be a big winner in. I have done this numerous times and can say for certain it has been very +EV for me in long term.

I don't do it in £200+ games as the players are generally less likely to be stackable and people also cut and run. In £25/£50/£100 games the money won from a big pot is rarely so much that a player will become ultra defensive or leg it.

I've never managed to think of any other reason why i would possibly want to straddle.

I play in casinos/private games in the North West where a live straddle is allowed from any position.  I mostly play dealers choice where in the flop games (omaha/O8) the late postion straddle can definately be a +EV play.

In these games a strong hand will not raise from early position as much as in hold em as no hands are as big a favourite then big pairs are in texas.

I'm presuming, in Luton and other casinos, only the UTG has 1st option to straddle and so on. I take it you don't allow the late position or button straddle that i'm used to?

never heard of that and it sounds insane and completely pointless.

[Nilawina]

I play in casinos/private games in the North West where a live straddle is allowed from any position.  I mostly play dealers choice where in the flop games (omaha/O8) the late postion straddle can definately be a +EV play.

In these games a strong hand will not raise from early position as much as in hold em as no hands are as big a favourite then big pairs are in texas.

I'm presuming, in Luton and other casinos, only the UTG has 1st option to straddle and so on. I take it you don't allow the late position or button straddle that i'm used to?

never heard of that and it sounds insane and completely pointless.

Really? Just in Liverpool then?

[gatso]

I've never heard of it either. please explain how a button straddle works.

[Nilawina]

I've never heard of it either. please explain how a button straddle works.

Playing Dealers choice 1/2 blinds. Button picks 4 card omaha high only. Button live straddles for £4. If no double straddle, sb now acts 1st to put in £3 to call or option to raise.
If no raise bb acts next to call the extra £2 or raise etc. Play continues to button who now has option to fold/call/reraise. In a unraised family pot there is now £32 rather then £16.

After flop play starts with sb as usual.

Button keeps advantage of acting last now in a larger pot.

[gatso]

still don't get it

sb now acts 1st to put in £3 to call or option to raise.

so SB acts 1st preflop?

I'm really confused

[Nilawina]

still don't get it

sb now acts 1st to put in £3 to call or option to raise.

so SB acts 1st preflop?



I'm really confused

Yes, SB acts 1st preflop.

I get the feeling i play in some wild games as even the double straddle can come from any position.

i.e button can raise to £4 and UTG+2 can raise to £8. Chips are kept in front of players and action preflop starts position after last live straddle. UTG+3 acts first to fold/call £8/raise and round to button who only puts in £4 to call. SB calls £7, BB calls £6, UTG calls £8 etc. The last live straddle then has option to call/raise.

Most hands don't have a live straddle and as discussed starts more later in the night when the money has got deeper. Again difference in Dealers Choice rather than texas, but even in DC more than 1 live straddle starts to have -EV.