Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[RED-DOG]

According to Facebook comments, most of the community cringed as they watched it through their fingers. 

Tom - I always watch these things with synacism as you know there is likely to be a slant of some sort.

I thought the thing that would upset the 'moral majority' would be the 'grabbing' which, if it was as shown on the programme, be seen as assault in some eyes. I realise that it's all part of the culture - is it Gypsy or Traveller culture or both?

If it is part of the Gypsy culture has it always been like this, if so did you Grab Mrs Red? I'm sure you mentioned somewhere how shy you were as a young man so the grabbing would seem out of character.

Grabbing is A relatively recent innovation, and is an Irish Traveller rather than a Gypsy thing.

In my day, If you had grabbed a girl like that, she. (Or her brother) would have split you open. At best, you would have had to fight someone the next morning

I have to say though, it was still quite innocent. Notice that the boys were after a kiss, no more, and during the "Grabbing" hands never strayed to where they shouldn't be.

The most disturbing piece in that programme was when they asked the 15 year old girls what they were looking for in a husband..

One answered "He shouldn't beat me".

Not exactly high expectations.

In the real world Keith you would be surprised.

I do cultural awareness training with an organisation that helps abused women as part of my job. Their statistics indicate that around 50% of women in relationships are the victims of domestic violence.

50% is a huge and and extremely worrying number Tom.

What do you think are the reasons it is so high?

I think I misquoted there Keith, I should have said, "Their statistics indicate that around 50% of women in relationships have been the victims of abuse or domestic violence at some point"

People do it because they can get away with it.

[celtic]

84% of all statistics are made up.

[RED-DOG]

84% of all statistics are made up.

Hi Vin, nice to see you here.

No football or free gifts I'm afraid.....

[GreekStein]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

[celtic]

84% of all statistics are made up.

Hi Vin, nice to see you here.

No football or free gifts I'm afraid.....

lol, Do you have any interest in football? If not, why not?

[tikay]

84% of all statistics are made up.

Hi Vin, nice to see you here.

No football or free gifts I'm afraid.....

lol, Do you have any interest in football? If not, why not?

He was a lifelong diehard Sheffield Wednesday supporter for over a fortnight once.

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

[RED-DOG]

84% of all statistics are made up.

Hi Vin, nice to see you here.

No football or free gifts I'm afraid.....

lol, Do you have any interest in football? If not, why not?

He was a lifelong diehard Sheffield Wednesday supporter for over a fortnight once.

It's true, but I gave up when someone called a member of the opposing team a bastard because he scored a goal.

[Dingdell]

That was the thing I didn't like - it seems as though those girls aren't allowed to have ambitons and control over how their lives turn out. They hit 16, get married and well, that's it - you make babies now.

I do cultural awareness training with an organisation that helps abused women as part of my job. Their statistics indicate that around 50% of women in relationships are the victims of domestic violence.

I would think making it culturally difficult for women to take control of their lives, and the associated feelings of ownership on the part of the husband that this would engender, can't help this statistic.

All true Andrew, but not quite as bleak as it may seem.

Women do have a lot of control within the marriage. they're just not particularly vocal about it in mixed company.

There are well defined roles for both partners, and that's how most Gypsy couples see themselves, as partners.

Obv Andrew has never met Mrs Red .......

I ike a lot of the concepts within the Gypsy community. Not sure I could keep up with them though - the level of cleanliness in the home I would struggle with, I often wash my hands in the kitchen sink for example!

I love the idea of such a strong community spirit, sadly lacking were I live despite efforts to improve it. The support that seems to be there for the wife to maintain the home, that bloke just about to get married would not show the inside of his caravan as it wasn't clean enough. I loved that as imo it showed respect to his future wife. I loved all of that.

[GreekStein]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

[Dingdell]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

Lol - that is exactly how I would describe the groups of east european men wandering around Northampton at the moment, or some of the Asians living in the road behind me who racially abused me and gave me loads of stick for being caucasian!

I suppose we find sterotypes in all cultures - i thought one of the young lads with blonde hair, heavy set, wide smile, beautiful eyes and gift of the gab in the programme (he was waiting for the girls to stop filming so he could grab one of them) met my stereotypical 'Gypsy requirements', possibly because one of my first experiences of meeting a Gypsy was them knocking on the door wanting to tarmac the drive. The smile got him almost everything he wanted, including the job, endless cups of tea and sandwiches from my mother. In restrospect he may have been a Traveller but I didn't know any different then.

The cheeky way he and hs mates had about them, somehow they were never expecting a 'no' when they asked for anything - they just knew that if they asked enough they would get what they wanted. 

[Woodsey]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Genuine question. Do you think that the % of Gypsies up to no good is no different than the general population? If so are there any stats to back this up?

Before I answer that Andrew, I need you the define "Up to no good" as opposed to "Breaking the law"

[GreekStein]

Gypsies just completely fascinate me. If you don't mind me saying Tom, you are so hugely different to any Gypsy I've ever knowingly encountered.

"Knowingly encountered" being the salient part of that sentence.   (See. I added a wink so that you will know that I'm not having a pop)

Seriously Cos, this is a great opportunity to explore some issues.

How do you define "Gypsies you've've knowingly encountered", why do we fascinate you, and how am I different?.

Please play along, I won't take offence whatever you say. This is exactly how we start out when we do our cultural awareness training

Red I'm not having a dig at all either and I know you aren't, but I'm always one to be as honest as I can re my thoughts and preconceptions etc.

I don't really know how to word what I'm saying without it coming off as not exactly what I think but I'd love to chat about it next time I saw you at DTD maybe. If I offend you in any way, I do apologise, that is definitely not my aim. I'll try and put my thoughts down though, even if it helps you to understand how some think.

I've identified Gypsies usually by the way they dress and speak and often by how they look too though these all go hand in hand. I often find the appearance of Gypsy men pretty intimidating. A lot look quite mean with battle scars etc. I've found them abrupt and often feels like they are looking for an excuse for confrontation. I would say a lot of people fear them.

If I'm 100% honest, I used to think a majority of Gypsies were a very rough sort of people, law breakers, fighters etc. In fact, I just messaged a friend and said what first comes into your mind when someone says Gypsies. His response was 'thieving thugs' but I know he was attacked on a tennis court a few years in a park by some Gypsy boys so I know his view is extreme and influenced by one event.

Now I'm not really sure what my stance is, though overall I'd be lying if I said I didn't think negatively of Gypsies. (I hate the way that sounds as I'm not one to disciminate - I'd never act in an unfriendly way to any individual and would treat any Gypsy in the same way I would anyone else). I know most of my friends, family and other people I've spoken to often also have a very negative opinion, mostly from personal experience and not just from silly programmes with Danny Dyer or films like Lock Stock.

I was once approached by two Gypsy boys as I walked home from school. I was about 13 and the two boys must of been about 14/15. They asked me if I had 10p spare - I assumed this was to get me to take my wallet out and when I said I hadn't any money on me, one of them grabbed my fountain pen from my blazer's outer pocket and they casually walked off.

We have a Harvester about 100 yards from the house. Some years ago now a few caravans moved in to its car park and the inhabitants tried to, or did break into all 16 of the houses along my stretch of road before they were moved on.

I also played in the same football team as a Gypsy boy called Jon-Paul when I was much younger and he was absolutely fearless. I remember him punching another boy several times in the face during a game when we were about 14 and kids that age just didn't know what was going on. He was seemingly unfazed by it. I've since heard he is now an underground boxer and stabbed his cousin in the leg over a dispute.

Whilst those encounters / incidents are relatively limited, they were very big negative experiences in my life at the time they occurred. It also seems like a disproportionate number of negative things that happened in my life involving Gypsies compared with people of other groups.

Obviously the media doesn't help as you never see anything positive written about Gypsies.

In fact, when Boshi told me you were a Gypsy a few years ago when I'd recently met you both, I think I responded to Dan and said something like, 'But he can't be?' as I thought he was winding me up. Ashamed that I said something so ignorant, but again, it helps explain my thinking.

Kinda worried about posting this because I don't wanna seem narrow minded and reading your thread and stories etc have genuinely changed my perception a lot, but not completely.

Thank you. It's an excellent and honest reply, but it does highlight one of the points I'm continually trying to get across.

You, (Along with most other people, including the media and the government)  assume that everyone who lives in a caravan is a Gypsy, when in fact you had no evidence of this at all.

How do you know that they weren't Irish Travellers, or "New Age travellers" for instance? (No disrespect to either group BTW, but they are not Gypsies)

Still, lets suppose that some of them were Gypsies. They came to your notice because they looked strange and were behaving badly. Well, fair enough, we have bad groups in our community just like everyone else. And they are the ones most likely to come to your attention, just like any other community.

I, and thousands like me, did not come to your attention. Not because we are not Gypsies, but because we don't look strange and we don't behave badly.

And yet, (And I mean no offence here Cos) You admit that you found it difficult to believe that I am a real Gypsy because I don't fit your criteria.

Do you see where the problem lies?

Traditionally, real Gypsies don't want to draw attention to themselves. they want to live quietly on the margins of society. Maintaining a low profile is instinctive when you have been persecuted for generations.

I really am grateful for your input, and your honesty.

Thanks for the reply Tom - I was definitely worried you might take it the wrong way as I was completely aware that some of the things I was saying were ignorant but felt like it might help me (and you maybe) if I said them.

Where do you think the problem lies deepest? I know I can can come across like a stirrer or a dousche on blonde sometimes, but I don't think I'm an ignorant person in general. I'm quite open minded and enjoy learning about things yet my view of Gypsies was an ignorant one. Why? Where did this come from in a broader sense?

I've never been educated on Gypsies, neither at school or by my parents. My parents who are quite knowledgeable people I'm sure would be just as ignorant on the subject as I am. This is obviously the crux of the problem - the large part of the population not knowing who Gypsies really are.

Another question here - Do these 'Irish Travellers' and 'New age travellers' often call themselves Gypsies when they shouldn't?