Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[kinboshi]

Makes you wonder what must've been going through these people's minds to enable them to do these things.

Check out the Milgam experiments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Turns out most of us will just do what we're told regardless. The "other variations" part of that wikipedia article is particularly sad. (a completely unethical experiment obv)

There was also the Stanford Prison Experiment, which is meant to show how an evil environment can cause people to do evil things.  However, the accuracy and validity of that experiment is often called into question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

[maccol]

Makes you wonder what must've been going through these people's minds to enable them to do these things.

Check out the Milgam experiments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Turns out most of us will just do what we're told regardless. The "other variations" part of that wikipedia article is particularly sad. (a completely unethical experiment obv)

I think the difference here is that Mengele was pretty much the authority figure and didnt need any encouragement or coercion to carry out the atrocities that he did.[/b]

[RED-DOG]

Genocide list

Some of the 200 million victims of crimes against humanity
since the beginning of the 20th century.


1915-1918:       Armenian Citizens                                  1 million

1933                Ukrainians                                             7 million

1939-1945        Gypsies in Concentration Camps               500,000

1939-1945        Serbians  in Concentration Camps            400,000

1939-1945          The mentally ill and physically
                       disabled in Concentration Camps             250,000

1939-1945         Jewish adults in Concentration Camps      4.5 million

1939-1945         Jewish children in Concentration Camps    1.5 million

1939-1945         Homosexuals in Concentration Camps      15,000

1939-1948          Germans ans Jews in Poland                 1.5 million

1945-1953          Russian Citizens  4 million

1945-2001          Vietnamese and citizens of Laos              1.6 million

1948-1987          North Korean citizens                            1.3 million

1949-1987          Chinese citizens                                    3.5 million

1965-1966          Indonesian citizens                                 100,000

1971                  Pakistani Bengalis                                   1.5 million

1975-1979          Cambodian citizens                                 1.5 million

1987-1988          Iraqi Kurds                                            100,00

1991-1992          Croation citizens                                     20,000

1992-1995          Muslim women raped in Bosnia                20,000

1992-1995          Bosnian children killed                             17,000

1992-1995          Bosnian children injured                          34,500

1992-1995          Bosnian Muslims                                     200,00

1993-1994          Rwandans                                             1 million in 100 days

1983-Present      Sudanese citizens                                   2 million
           
2002-Present      Democratic Republic of Congo                  4 million

2002-Present     Darfur                                                   400,000

2008-Present     Kenya                                                   500 and rising




   

[kinboshi]

...and in those last five you mention in Africa, what did the 'West' do to intervene or help?

[AndrewT]

Makes you wonder what must've been going through these people's minds to enable them to do these things.

Check out the Milgam experiments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Turns out most of us will just do what we're told regardless. The "other variations" part of that wikipedia article is particularly sad. (a completely unethical experiment obv)

I think the difference here is that Mengele was pretty much the authority figure and didnt need any encouragement or coercion to carry out the atrocities that he did.[/b]

Mengle wasn't really a case of 'just following orders' - there are reports of him doing some medical experiments on people after the war when he was on the run in South America, so he was just not right in the head.

There is a more general interest in the lower-ranking Nazis - those who genuinely were told what to do. They had a choice of 'do these bad things to people now or get shot'. I think in order to be able to live with themselves they would rationalise some reasons to justify their actions - hence the propaganda that Jews, Gypsies etc were less than human - comparing them to animals.

The exact same thing happened in Rwanda - with the Hutus branding the Tutsis as cockroaches, subhuman creatures that would presumably be easier to kill for someone who considered themselves to be a good person.

[AndrewT]

...and in those last five you mention in Africa, what did the 'West' do to intervene or help?

Those countries are far away with no oil.

[gatso]

not surpisingly, the number that stands out for me in that list is the biggy, the 7 million ukrainians killed in the holodomor

what's interesting is that stalin was responsible for a second genocide by in the country later on

having taken out 7,000,000 mostly peasants he later (early 40s I think) sent the soldiers in to wipe out the inteligentia but they pretty much took out anyone in a lot of towns. these people aren't on your list and it's almost impossible to find any info on it as it was overshadowed by other events at the time. it does make you wonder how many more instances of genocide are simply not known

[RED-DOG]

it does make you wonder how many more instances of genocide are simply not known

QFT

[maccol]

...and in those last five you mention in Africa, what did the 'West' do to intervene or help?

With the exception of WW2 and UN intervention in Bosnia I think all the others have been carried out unchecked.

[maccol]

not surpisingly, the number that stands out for me in that list is the biggy, the 7 million ukrainians killed in the holodomor

Just learned a little bit about this on TV (Heirhunters ?) this week.
7 million souls starved to death and yet I, and I am sure many others, had never heard of it never mind been taught about it in school.
We live in a very insular society.

[trafficjam]

Gripping stuff once again Tom and it still goes on to this day for many people.

Only by special people like yourself continually highlighting these atrocities will we ever have the chance to put an end to it all.

And I won't accept a reply saying you're nothing special, you are.

Geo

Agree - gripping read and you are a special person.

[RED-DOG]

Gripping stuff once again Tom and it still goes on to this day for many people.

Only by special people like yourself continually highlighting these atrocities will we ever have the chance to put an end to it all.

And I won't accept a reply saying you're nothing special, you are.

Geo

Agree - gripping read and you are a special person.

Thanks, I appreciate your comments, but could we please please dispense with the"special person" stuff. It's embarrassing me to death.

Anyway, all I did was flap my gums about. Any fool can do that.

[Geo the Sarge]

Gripping stuff once again Tom and it still goes on to this day for many people.

Only by special people like yourself continually highlighting these atrocities will we ever have the chance to put an end to it all.

And I won't accept a reply saying you're nothing special, you are.

Geo

Agree - gripping read and you are a special person.

Thanks, I appreciate your comments, but could we please please dispense with the"special person" stuff. It's embarrassing me to death.

Anyway, all I did was flap my gums about. Any fool woman can do that.

fyp

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

Tom,

how's your knowledge on ducks?

My works building is surrounded by a large moat - like feature. Each year there is always a pair of ducks arrive early spring. They nest here and raise between 7-10 ducklings each year. I've been here almost 10 years now and it's happened since I can remember.

They have become an attraction to all at work and we have even had a floating bird house thingy built in the middle of the moat. We also have a live "duck-cam" up and running once the ducklings are born and we watch them grow until late autumn when they leave for the winter.

There has been some dreadful moments, like when a fox raided the nest and the early workers faced the horrible sight of scattered duckling remains spread around the front area. Women sitting at their desks crying cos the ducklings have been killed etc.

Today, which seems much earlier in the year than normal, a pair of ducks arrived and look to have begun settling in. Couple of questions:

1. Would these be the same pair each year, it's always just one pair that generally settle each year, or would it be first to arrive claims the area as their own?

2. Do ducks mate for life like some other species?

3. Can you think of any reason why they seem to have arrived so early this year?

A lot of the workers find it an exiting time, watching the ducklings grow from the "awwww, ain't they lovely" little fluffy bundles to be a match for size and appearance as the parents before they fly off pre-winter.

I'll get some pics and hopefully things go well and I can do a running update over the coming months.

Geo

[RED-DOG]

Are we talking mallards here Geo? I assume we are.

What a fantastic privilege have a live duck-cam at work. I hope you do find the time keep us updated with pics and progress reports.

Do ducks mate for life like some other species?

I like this answer from wiki. It's a bit long but I think it's probably the most accurate one out there. (Ducks/people- Pretty similar if you ask me)

The answer to this question is both YES and NO. It all depends on the drake's agenda.

During the mating seasons, the hen can be very picky on choosing a partner and often many prefer a drake that will protect them for as long as possible.

For the "NO" reason:

Most mallard ducks (about 90% of them) do NOT mate for life because the hen tends to turn her attentions away from the drake after she's laid her eggs in which the drake will feel left out and most likely leave her for another hen. Thus, the drake and hen only temporary bond until the hen's eggs are close to hatching in which the drake will move on and find another mate. The hen however is capable of looking after the ducklings without the drake, of whom she no longer cares for at this point. Although this gives the family a greater disadvantage for survival because some unrelated drakes may attack her ducklings in order to make her fertile whereareas in families contaning both parents, the father can step in fight off the attacking drake (or die trying).

For the "YES" reason:

However, there are some drakes that do stay to help protect the family and attack predators that may threaten the family until the ducklings are fully mature. These drakes stay because they feel that leaving the hen would only make them feel twice the loniless than the loniness they are already suffering. Though they assist the hen in watching the ducklings, they would do so from a distant because most mallard hens tend to be very aggressive and would not permit anyone, not even the drake, to go near the ducklings (the despite the fact that the father has no intention in attacking them). Though the female mallards may allow the drakes to watch them closely while she's off to fish herself some meal. Simutaneously, the drakes that stay with the family also prefer to maintain some personal spaces because he does not like being crowded by the noise of the ducklings under circumstances. Once the ducklings are mature and leave, the hen and drake may mate a second time to produce another family, thus continuing another mallard family cycle.


1. Would these be the same pair each year, it's always just one pair that generally settle each year, or would it be first to arrive claims the area as their own?


It's quite likely to be the same hen, but, for the reasons outlined above not necessarily the same drake.

I have no idea why they're early. It's not as if it's been mild.