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Author Topic: Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary  (Read 4440584 times)
kinboshi
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« Reply #8715 on: February 24, 2010, 05:52:59 PM »

Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

I've heard that the ridge is actually a deformity, but interestingly the kennel club's definition of the breed doesn't mention that.  I do know that ones born without the ridge are perfectly healthy dogs, but are often 'disposed of' as puppies, because they don't match the 'design'.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/36

It does mention
Quote
Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

The fault is in the definition of the breed, not the departure from it.

I doubt it's a deformity Kin, settlers in South Africa bred their dogs with local dogs which had the ridge, seeking to take some of the qualities of the local hunting dogs while adding size to enable them to be used to hunt Lions the ones that kept those qualities best seemed to have ridges so everyone wanted a dog with a ridgge.

Culling of a dog for not meeting an aesthetic standard is criminal. We'd a dalmatian with a spot on her nose - the KC standard called for her to be culled - she was one of the brightest and most well behaved dogs we've ever had.

Since the embarrassment suffered by the KC after the BBC programme on the problems their standards were causing they've amended the standards to say no healthy puppy should be culled.

I think it was on that BBC programme they discussed the Ridgebacks.  I don't think it stopped the dogs doing the job they were bred for, but it made (makes) them more susceptible to Dermoid sinuses (similar to spina bifida in humans from what I've just read).  So again, even though the dogs were 'fit for purpose' the 'in-breeding' to achieve the desired trait has increased the risk of a disease that causes pain and ultimately many dogs to be put down.

I think we're all on the same side on this debate.  Not heard anyone championing the kennel club's cause yet?
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« Reply #8716 on: February 24, 2010, 06:42:03 PM »

Whilst racing may not have been the original use of a greyhound type dog, it is certainly much closer than showing...

Racing Greyhound - Fit and lean, with an eager look in her eye


Show Greyhound - Overweight and with all the running bred out of it, looks bored to tears
 Click to see full-size image.
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« Reply #8717 on: February 24, 2010, 08:29:38 PM »

Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

I've heard that the ridge is actually a deformity, but interestingly the kennel club's definition of the breed doesn't mention that.  I do know that ones born without the ridge are perfectly healthy dogs, but are often 'disposed of' as puppies, because they don't match the 'design'.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/36

It does mention
Quote
Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

The fault is in the definition of the breed, not the departure from it.

I doubt it's a deformity Kin, settlers in South Africa bred their dogs with local dogs which had the ridge, seeking to take some of the qualities of the local hunting dogs while adding size to enable them to be used to hunt Lions the ones that kept those qualities best seemed to have ridges so everyone wanted a dog with a ridgge.

Culling of a dog for not meeting an aesthetic standard is criminal. We'd a dalmatian with a spot on her nose - the KC standard called for her to be culled - she was one of the brightest and most well behaved dogs we've ever had.

Since the embarrassment suffered by the KC after the BBC programme on the problems their standards were causing they've amended the standards to say no healthy puppy should be culled.

I think it was on that BBC programme they discussed the Ridgebacks.  I don't think it stopped the dogs doing the job they were bred for, but it made (makes) them more susceptible to Dermoid sinuses (similar to spina bifida in humans from what I've just read).  So again, even though the dogs were 'fit for purpose' the 'in-breeding' to achieve the desired trait has increased the risk of a disease that causes pain and ultimately many dogs to be put down.

I think we're all on the same side on this debate.  Not heard anyone championing the kennel club's cause yet?

Definately on the same side - I was being generous to them with the 'more harm than good' comment.

I'd heard there was a theory that the ridge was in someway linked to a form of spina bifida, but never that the theory was conclusively proved - there's a few other breeds of ridged dogs (Thai?) I suppose if they were prone to the same problem then the link's likely there.
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« Reply #8718 on: February 24, 2010, 08:57:24 PM »

Yes, can't find any conclusive studies after a quick search.  All the 'evidence' is from one side or the other (and not surprisingly contradictory), so difficult to see through any bias.

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« Reply #8719 on: February 25, 2010, 09:06:11 AM »

tom, is this breeding for aesthetic values not somewhat similar to Gypsy horses? do they have health problems because of it or does it not work the same way with horses?


Sorry I didn't have time to reply to this yesterday, it's a great question.

The answer comes in two parts.

Firstly, dogs as a species are very amenable to selective breeding, even when it's extreme selective breeding, much more so than most other species. Think about it, have you ever seen a 16 stone, four foot tall domestic cat, or one that was small enough to sit in a tea cup? What about a particularly vicious strain of budgie?

This is not to say that other species can't be selectively bred for specific attributes, they can, but they are much more resistant to change, especially detrimental change.

Say you decide to buy yourself a nice pedigree puppy. (Let's take two breeds that have been mentioned in this thread as an example) A quick google will provide you with a list of health issues that these breeds are prone to.

Note: This does not mean that every puppy will suffer from these problems, but they will be prone to them.

Dalmation: Hearing, Urinary Stones, Epilepsy, Allergies, Hypothyroidism, Seizures.

Alsation: Hip displasia Anal furunculosis, Cutaneous vasculopathy, Pancreatic insufficiency, Panosteitis, Gastric torsion, Congenital heart disease.

It's the same for almost all dog breeds, with the exception of those which are still primarily bred to work.


 
Now. let us move on to Gypsy horses.

As we have seen, horses don't lend themselves to extremes of selective breeding, especially detrimental selective breeding nearly so much as dogs do, but even if they did, it wouldn't happen.

You see, Gypsy horses are bred for the way they look, but they still have to be able to perform the work that they were originally bred for.

Take a trip to any of the Gypsy horse fairs (Or type Appleby fair / Stow fair into YouTube) and you will see that the horses are not just standing their looking beautiful, they are also being put through their paces.

A Horse that was close to perfection appearance wise would lose a lot of it's value if it was mentally or physically incapable of performing it's primary function.

Gypsies have managed bring about significant physical change in their horses by selective breeding, but these are advantageous rather than detrimental.

Unlike Most domestic breeds, Gypsy horses don't need stabling, and can live outdoors through the harshest of winters. They rarely need supplementary feeding, and will get fat on the poorest of keep. They are inherently quiet, biddable and willing to please. They usually foal and rear their young naturally and without the need for human intervention.

I don't know if this will change in future generations, (Perhaps when it's made illegal to pull a wagon on the highway, or to keep a horse entirely outdoors) but for now, the answer to your excellent question is "No. It doesn't work the same way with gypsy horses"
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« Reply #8720 on: February 25, 2010, 12:59:59 PM »

so what you're saying is you can't breed me a pocket sized horse? shame
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« Reply #8721 on: February 25, 2010, 01:00:57 PM »

so what you're saying is you can't breed me a pocket sized horse? shame

Oh I dunno, I've heard you have big pockets....
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« Reply #8722 on: February 25, 2010, 01:12:23 PM »


Gypsies have managed bring about significant physical change in their horses by selective breeding, but these are advantageous rather than detrimental.


Advantageous to who Tom? Have they made the horses life better? Would the horse have been as well off if it wasn't selectively bred and altered through generations?

They've probably been made stronger and a better shape for their job but did they really need a job? If they weren't pulling carts they wouldn't need to have their shape changed in the first place.

I'm not knocking it but it doesn't seem too much different to dog breeding. Show dogs have a job. That job is to win trophies and money for the breeder. The breeder changes their look to make them better at it.
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« Reply #8723 on: February 25, 2010, 01:27:26 PM »


Gypsies have managed bring about significant physical change in their horses by selective breeding, but these are advantageous rather than detrimental.


Advantageous to who Tom? Have they made the horses life better? Would the horse have been as well off if it wasn't selectively bred and altered through generations?

They've probably been made stronger and a better shape for their job but did they really need a job? If they weren't pulling carts they wouldn't need to have their shape changed in the first place.

I'm not knocking it but it doesn't seem too much different to dog breeding. Show dogs have a job. That job is to win trophies and money for the breeder. The breeder changes their look to make them better at it.

With respect Matt, it's possible manufacture an argument for or against anything. I was just trying to answer gatso's question as honestly as possible.

In my opinion. Yes, a horse that, (For instance) has to live outdoors in all weathers, is better of if it is selectively bred to do so.

No. I would not consider what show dogs do to be a "Job". at least not in the sense I alluded to, and it's a huge leap to call them working dogs when even the Kennel Club recognises the difference.

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« Reply #8724 on: February 25, 2010, 01:35:18 PM »

so what you're saying is you can't breed me a pocket sized horse? shame

Oh I dunno, I've heard you have big pockets....

to go with the short arms I got from selective breeding
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« Reply #8725 on: February 25, 2010, 03:13:28 PM »


Gypsies have managed bring about significant physical change in their horses by selective breeding, but these are advantageous rather than detrimental.


Advantageous to who Tom? Have they made the horses life better? Would the horse have been as well off if it wasn't selectively bred and altered through generations?

They've probably been made stronger and a better shape for their job but did they really need a job? If they weren't pulling carts they wouldn't need to have their shape changed in the first place.

I'm not knocking it but it doesn't seem too much different to dog breeding. Show dogs have a job. That job is to win trophies and money for the breeder. The breeder changes their look to make them better at it.

With respect Matt, it's possible manufacture an argument for or against anything. I was just trying to answer gatso's question as honestly as possible.

In my opinion. Yes, a horse that, (For instance) has to live outdoors in all weathers, is better of if it is selectively bred to do so.

No. I would not consider what show dogs do to be a "Job". at least not in the sense I alluded to, and it's a huge leap to call them working dogs when even the Kennel Club recognises the difference.



Agree completely. I tried not to sound argumentative but it's almost impossible on something like this as there isn't really a middle ground.

As for breeding a horse to live outdoors? Surely that must be something that at some point has been bred out of them and then had to be bred back in? All horses are outdoor creatures by design.

I find it interesting how animals adapt to outside living. Ronnie lives outside all year and you can see his body change for winter. His coat thickens particularly his waterproof undercoat. He also loses loads of weight when it's really cold as his body uses the energy in his food to provide heat.

You can notice as well that snow settles on him if he's lying outside of his kennel. He's so well insulated that non of his body heat gets out to actually melt the snow.

They're so much more adaptable to their surrounding than us weak humans.
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« Reply #8726 on: February 25, 2010, 03:23:40 PM »


Gypsies have managed bring about significant physical change in their horses by selective breeding, but these are advantageous rather than detrimental.


Advantageous to who Tom? Have they made the horses life better? Would the horse have been as well off if it wasn't selectively bred and altered through generations?

They've probably been made stronger and a better shape for their job but did they really need a job? If they weren't pulling carts they wouldn't need to have their shape changed in the first place.

I'm not knocking it but it doesn't seem too much different to dog breeding. Show dogs have a job. That job is to win trophies and money for the breeder. The breeder changes their look to make them better at it.

With respect Matt, it's possible manufacture an argument for or against anything. I was just trying to answer gatso's question as honestly as possible.

In my opinion. Yes, a horse that, (For instance) has to live outdoors in all weathers, is better of if it is selectively bred to do so.

No. I would not consider what show dogs do to be a "Job". at least not in the sense I alluded to, and it's a huge leap to call them working dogs when even the Kennel Club recognises the difference.



Agree completely. I tried not to sound argumentative but it's almost impossible on something like this as there isn't really a middle ground.

As for breeding a horse to live outdoors? Surely that must be something that at some point has been bred out of them and then had to be bred back in? All horses are outdoor creatures by design.

I find it interesting how animals adapt to outside living. Ronnie lives outside all year and you can see his body change for winter. His coat thickens particularly his waterproof undercoat. He also loses loads of weight when it's really cold as his body uses the energy in his food to provide heat.

You can notice as well that snow settles on him if he's lying outside of his kennel. He's so well insulated that non of his body heat gets out to actually melt the snow.

They're so much more adaptable to their surrounding than us weak humans.

Yes, but we have opposable thumbs and large brains.  Well, some do.
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« Reply #8727 on: February 25, 2010, 03:32:55 PM »


Yes, but we have opposable thumbs and large brains.  Well, some do.

That's because God selectively bred us to be able to build houses and make coats.
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« Reply #8728 on: February 25, 2010, 03:35:59 PM »


Yes, but we have opposable thumbs and large brains.  Well, some do.

That's because God selectively bred us to be able to build houses and make coats.

He did, and women he bred from a rib.
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« Reply #8729 on: February 25, 2010, 03:37:20 PM »

I wouldn't have a clue how to make a coat and I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want to live in a house I built
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