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Author Topic: Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary  (Read 4480897 times)
RED-DOG
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« Reply #18900 on: July 10, 2012, 01:17:43 AM »

This is interesting. I'll do the test tomorrow.



Dishes that get hot in the microwave, are not "microwave safe"...that means that there is some element in the dishes that absorbs microwave energy. Something like metal in the glaze or in the dish itself. Unless, or course, you are cooking something like rice in them that takes at least 4 or 5 minutes and stays hot so long that it heats the bowl.
Test the dishes for microwave safety by putting a glass container of water and the dish in question in the microwave....heat for 30 seconds or so...or until the water boils and test the temperature of the dish. If it's hot it's absorbing microwave energy.
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« Reply #18901 on: July 10, 2012, 06:39:29 AM »

As Rex said, your microwave oven works by agitating water molecules, aligning them one way, then the other, and it's this friction that causes it to heat up (like rubbing your hands together on a cold day, or whilst sat under the air con at DTD).

Foods with a high water content will tend to heat up more quickly than drier foods (assuming the same mass).

If you put in a cup of tea or coffee that's gone a bit tepid, it only needs twenty seconds or so and it'll be piping hot again. Unfortunately, if the mug it's in is unglazed or has cracks in the glaze, this will allow water to get into the mug. When it's in the microwave, this water will be agitated by the microwaves heating it up quickly and in turn this will heat the actual material of the mug.

When using a microwave to heat a large item of food, say a lump of meat or large bowl of soup it's worth remembering that the microwaves will only penetrate an inch or so through the dense matter. This means the stuff in the middle isn't heated through the microwave radiation  but instead is heated via conduction (basically the stuff that's warmed by the microwave radiation then transfers some of its heat to the colder stuff). That's why you need to stir large bowls of soup to get it to warm consistently and not be very hot on the outside and cooler in the middle, and why it's more effective with smaller chunks of meat.

Also plastic bowls that melt in the microwave aren't usually affected by the microwave energy directly but are actually melted by the contents of the bowl getting so hot it then in turn melts the bowl via conduction.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 06:41:58 AM by kinboshi » Logged

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« Reply #18902 on: July 10, 2012, 07:36:12 AM »

Thanks Dan.

Here's some further reading for the micro-curious.



A Brief History of the Microwave Oven

Like many of today's great inventions, the microwave oven was a by-product of another technology. It was during a radar-related research project around 1946 that Dr. Percy Spencer, a self-taught engineer with the Raytheon Corporation, noticed something very unusual. He was testing a new vacuum tube called a magnetron (we are searching for a picture of an actual 1946 magnetron), when he discovered that the candy bar in his pocket had melted. This intrigued Dr. Spencer, so he tried another experiment. This time he placed some popcorn kernels near the tube and, perhaps standing a little farther away, he watched with an inventive sparkle in his eye as the popcorn sputtered, cracked and popped all over his lab.

The next morning, Scientist Spencer decided to put the magnetron tube near an egg. Spencer was joined by a curious colleague, and they both watched as the egg began to tremor and quake. The rapid temperature rise within the egg was causing tremendous internal pressure. Evidently the curious colleague moved in for a closer look just as the egg exploded and splattered hot yolk all over his amazed face. The face of Spencer lit up with a logical scientific conclusion: the melted candy bar, the popcorn, and now the exploding egg, were all attributable to exposure to low-density microwave energy. Thus, if an egg can be cooked that quickly, why not other foods? Experimentation began...

Dr. Spencer fashioned a metal box with an opening into which he fed microwave power. The energy entering the box was unable to escape, thereby creating a higher density electromagnetic field. When food was placed in the box and microwave energy fed in, the temperature of the food rose very rapidly. Dr. Spencer had invented what was to revolutionize cooking, and form the basis of a multimillion dollar industry, the microwave oven.


The rest of the story.

http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/history.html

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« Reply #18903 on: July 10, 2012, 09:21:37 AM »

I have another microwave question, but first I have to tell you about this.



In 1988 I bought a small Honda generator. It's about the size of a large bread-bin and weighs ~ 40lbs.

It only produces 1000w of power, so it won't run an electric kettle or a hair dryer, but it will run things like a TV, a light, or a microwave oven. I know that might seem a bit restrictive, but prior to it's purchase, our only source of electricity was a 12 volt battery.

For us, it was like moving in to the space age.



 Click to see full-size image.





As good as it was, (And let me tell you, when it comes to engines Honda are pretty damn good) it did have it's drawbacks. These were mainly to do with it's tiny size.

For one thing, the petrol tank only holds about a pint. so long winter evenings meant at least one re-fill. Usually during a rain-storm or in the middle of a good film.

Another problem was the capacity of the tiny sump. This only held about half a cup of oil, which of course was adequate for such a small engine, but it did get dirty really quickly.

You see when an engine burns petrol, it produces waste in the form of ash and carbon. Most of this filth is carried away by the exhaust gasses, but some is deposited on to the piston and cylinder, where it is picked up by the oil.

Oil is an engines life blood, it allows moving metal parts to rub against each other without causing damage, but if that oil is contaminated, it becomes abrasive, like grinding paste, and it will kill your engine in no time.





I used to change the oil in the little generator once every two days, but in between oil changes, I would still fret. You see these little engines were only designed to run for the odd hour every now and then. I was running mine for like, 8 hour stretches, 7 days a week.

Then one day I got talking to a bloke who had a huge American car. I asked him how he could afford to run such a beast. By way of an answer he motioned me over to the 'trunk'.

Inside was a gas cylinder. He was running his car on propane gas.

"Oh it's much cheaper than petrol" He told me. "And what's more, it keeps your oil clean".

To demonstrate, he popped the hood and pulled out the dipstick. It was coated with a film of beautifully clean green oil, not a trace of soot or carbon in sight.

"Won't need changing for 100,000 miles" He assured me.





Filled with excitement, I wrote to Honda to ask about converting my little Jenny to run on Gas. To my surprise they wrote back to tell me that I could order a kit from my local Honda dealer.

With the conversion kit fitted, the oil in my generator never got dirty again. (I still changed it once a month though. It didn't need it, but I couldn't help it).

It also cured the re-fill mid film problem. I used to run it off a 47kg 'torpedo' propane bottle which would last about three months.

An unexpected benefit was being able to stop the generator without getting out of bed. I just used to lean out of the caravan window and turn the gas bottle off. I was the envy of all my friends.




That was almost 25 years ago. I still have my little Honda generator. I don't use her so much these days, except for a week or two each year if I go to Stow or some other horse fair, or during power cuts.

When I do use her though, I check the oil level, connect her to a gas bottle, pull the cord, and she starts first time, every time.


You can't beat clean oil.






 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 09:41:09 AM by RED-DOG » Logged

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« Reply #18904 on: July 10, 2012, 09:25:36 AM »

Anyway....


Which would heat the soup more efficiently, burning the gas directly under the bowl, or using the gas to run the generator to power the microwave?
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« Reply #18905 on: July 10, 2012, 09:26:23 AM »

So much love for that story!

Good ol Honda! And they (generic they, not honda they) definitely dont make things like they used too!
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« Reply #18906 on: July 10, 2012, 09:50:33 AM »

Anyway....


Which would heat the soup more efficiently, burning the gas directly under the bowl, or using the gas to run the generator to power the microwave?

The actual heating the soup in the microwave is very efficient, but energy would be lost by the generator heating up.  The direct gas obviously heats up the pot and the surrouding environment, so presumably in the winter (or even the kind of summer we are having....) it would be better to use the direct gas?
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« Reply #18907 on: July 10, 2012, 09:54:40 AM »

A 900w microwave uses about 1500w of power - but like doubleup says, it will use that 900w (of microwave power) very efficiently.

I think some empirical research is required Tom - get experimenting and tell us your findings!
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« Reply #18908 on: July 10, 2012, 09:54:49 AM »

Whilst you're at it:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/
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« Reply #18909 on: July 10, 2012, 09:55:36 AM »

So much love for that story!

Good ol Honda! And they (generic they, not honda they) definitely dont make things like they used too!

Really? The last Honda I bought was one of the early Civic models and while the paintwork might have been a bit suspect, (I cured that problem with a 4in brush and a tin of smooth Hammerite) the engine indestructible.

It had already done space-shuttle mileage when I bought it, but it was utterly reliable and ran as smoothly as a sewing machine.  


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« Reply #18910 on: July 10, 2012, 09:58:29 AM »

Anyway....


Which would heat the soup more efficiently, burning the gas directly under the bowl, or using the gas to run the generator to power the microwave?

The actual heating the soup in the microwave is very efficient, but energy would be lost by the generator heating up.  The direct gas obviously heats up the pot and the surrouding environment, so presumably in the winter (or even the kind of summer we are having....) it would be better to use the direct gas?

I'm tempted to say direct gas too Dave, but then there is an awful lot of heat escaping into the atmosphere.

On the other hand, look at all those moving parts th the generator, all that inertia.....


 
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« Reply #18911 on: July 10, 2012, 10:03:39 AM »

Whilst you're at it:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

Wow! That's so cool. (Well, hot actually).

I wonder how close I would need to get to heat my soup?
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« Reply #18912 on: July 10, 2012, 10:09:35 AM »

So much love for that story!

Good ol Honda! And they (generic they, not honda they) definitely dont make things like they used too!

Really? The last Honda I bought was one of the early Civic models and while the paintwork might have been a bit suspect, (I cured that problem with a 4in brush and a tin of smooth Hammerite) the engine indestructible.

It had already done space-shuttle mileage when I bought it, but it was utterly reliable and ran as smoothly as a sewing machine.  




Thats what I am saying - honda are amazing

but "they" - being a capture all - generally dont make stuff like they used to!
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« Reply #18913 on: July 10, 2012, 10:11:55 AM »

Ahh! I see...

Sorry Guy, my bad. I thought you meant they (Honda) had lost the plot.
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« Reply #18914 on: July 10, 2012, 11:25:18 AM »

A 900w microwave uses about 1500w of power - but like doubleup says, it will use that 900w (of microwave power) very efficiently.

I think some empirical research is required Tom - get experimenting and tell us your findings!

An engine generator is typically around 60% efficient, so combined with the microwave, you end up with about 35% of the combustion energy of the propane going into your soup.

Now, how efficient is lighting a flame under your bowl? A quick google gives a number of 50% efficiency for a gas hob. That's one number off one site and I suspect there are several variables. However, I think that probably answers the question.
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