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Author Topic: Rotterdam or anywhere  (Read 2529 times)
LuckyLloyd
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2008, 04:53:17 PM »

Wha the fook at this thread. You call the turn to hit something of your many outs. If we hit we get our stack in (shove for less than the pot); if we miss we fold. Bluffing novice players or trying tricky moves is baaaaaaaaaaad.

This hand is really simple folks.
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ACE2M
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2008, 04:58:47 PM »

Wha the fook at this thread. You call the turn to hit something of your many outs. If we hit we get our stack in (shove for less than the pot); if we miss we fold. Bluffing novice players or trying tricky moves is baaaaaaaaaaad.

This hand is really simple folks.

did you read the thread?
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LuckyLloyd
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2008, 05:05:10 PM »

Wha the fook at this thread. You call the turn to hit something of your many outs. If we hit we get our stack in (shove for less than the pot); if we miss we fold. Bluffing novice players or trying tricky moves is baaaaaaaaaaad.

This hand is really simple folks.

did you read the thread?

I read the hand. Read a couple of replies and realised that there was a whole lot of uneccesary words being wasted. I still can't quite understand why.
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NoflopsHomer
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2008, 05:16:55 PM »

Wha the fook at this thread. You call the turn to hit something of your many outs. If we hit we get our stack in (shove for less than the pot); if we miss we fold. Bluffing novice players or trying tricky moves is baaaaaaaaaaad.

This hand is really simple folks.

did you read the thread?

I read the hand. Read a couple of replies and realised that there was a whole lot of uneccesary words being wasted. I still can't quite understand why.

I guess you've recovered from the flu... Cheesy
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GlasgowBandit
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 08:11:34 PM »

After attempting the steal pre- you have lost initiative by not betting the flop.  For me any time I attempt to steal I always follow through on the flop, no matter if I hit or not.  As played, and I have mangled hands like this before its player dependent for me - I sometimes think that inexperienced players can pass here when you put them to a decision.  I wouldn't be attempting to value bet but would be putting him to the test with betting his full stack - probaly quiz him a little as well ask for a count of his chip etc I find this often cranks up the presure on newbies.  I think you may have been called with AK/AQ in this spot and he has missed
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Horneris
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 08:52:04 PM »

I havent read all the responses, only the answers.

I dont hate the flop check as much as some. I push the turn though without a doubt.

He will probably fold and if he dosent, you probably have any Ace, almost definetly any 4, and without doubt any diamond.
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stewart
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2008, 10:03:49 AM »

i shove on the turn or at least re-raise why are you calling on the turn you think you will get paid if you hit ?  that or pass flat calling to hit the key card on the river to get paid is not an option for me here

imo i may be a more aggressive player than you but i would of bet the flop as well you have a middle pin draw its enough to bet that flop and its very ulikely given the hands you stated he has been playing that he has hit any of that flop prob had any kind of  picture cards more likely had you by the short and curlys pre-flop
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2008, 02:36:21 PM »

I think that once you have got into the mindset that you are "stealing", the pre-flop call leads you to think you have been "caught", and so you shut down. Whilst you can try and dredge a pot win up from the depths on the river it seems a little late for that. And as ACE2M says....a little unconvincing as well.

Much better to raise pre-flop with the mentality that you have the best hand...and you probably do. It is then an easy c-bet on the flop because you have improved by pricking up a wheel draw to go with your Ace, and your oppo probably hasn't improved at all. If you do get action the turn is going to be an easy push because you improve further still. So from start to finish you have a reasonable hand that keeps improving. Checking the flop means that your oppo is going to bet a lot of the time....he is taking the initiative because you don't want to, and probably nothing more than that. So check is good for me too on the end.

This post is all kinds of brilliance.

Poker, so often, is about mindset - the unconscious preconceptions we bring to the table.

I've been in similar situations to this hand many times before, and have found myself not c-betting. I never realised what I was subconsciously doing until I read Mantis's post - I was treating the hand as a steal that failed, and so that my hand was worthless. Many's the time I push this river and I would always seem to get called by A7 or 88, my hand looking like an obvious bluff.

By convincing myself of the strength of my hand, I don't allow my opponent to tell me he, in fact, believes my hand to be worthless.

Agreed, gr8 post Mantis.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2008, 03:33:00 PM »

If you read the thread there are a lot of responses that talk about how many outs you have and that you should get chips into the pot if you hit and fold if you miss. This places all the emphasis on the cards....and not the situation.

When you look down in the CO you see a pair of Jacks and this is why you raise. When the flop arrives it is a perfect one for your Jacks and so you bet. The turn is another perfect card for your Jacks and so you push.

The main factors that contribute to making this situation are....1. You have a tight image, 2. The texture of the flop is perfect, 3. Your oppo "doesn't play back without something", 4. You have your oppo out-chipped, and most importantly 5. We have identified him as "holding a marginal hand".

This all creates a situation that means playing your hand like you have Jacks is ideal. It is possible that you may get caught but all the above make that very unlikely imo. If he does call all-in with a small pp then he's made a bad call....because you have Jacks, right? Of course all the while your draw is improving so in that worst case scenario you will have an insurance policy to fall back on. But it wont get that far.

Of course the alternative is to play A-5 and wait to hit outs.....but I prefer my pair of Jacks here.

If you bet the river without this prior representation then what hand do you have now? A set? I think that's a much harder story to tell.
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LuckyLloyd
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 04:50:36 PM »

Look how short the fucking effective stacks are in this hand! It renders all the crap above as completely and utterly irrelevant. Jesus. 
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 05:52:09 PM »

Look how short the fucking effective stacks are in this hand! It renders all the crap above as completely and utterly irrelevant. Jesus. 

ffs stop sitting on the fence. Speak your mind.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 05:39:20 PM »

A c-bet on the flop is a better use of 5k than calling that amount on the turn. IF you get called, pushing the turn for 18k and asking your oppo to call all-in for 13k is perfectly effective for the situation.

Lloyd, you have this habit of assessing stuff like effective stack sizes through your eyes only. It really doesn't matter what you would do or how you would judge the situation.....it only matters what your oppo thinks. In this case your oppo in young and inexperienced.....and he doesn't think like you do. And he will fold his marginal hand to this type of pressure....whether you deem it correct or not.
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