Stars, $30+3, early on, top pair on a drawing board, decision time?

[pswnio]

The point is that if you anaylse hero's actions. his checkraise cannot have been planned which oddly enough he admits is the case.

You're right. It wasn't planned. I was going to check fold. But the bet size felt like much more like a draw than any hand that was ahead, so I revised my decision.

That's really my point and my question. Did the bet size feel like that to anyone else? Even if it did, how much weight can we really place on that reading? Whether or not it was planned is by the by. A piece of information changed my decision. Is that wrong?

[Longy]

I think the size of bet could mean the exact opposite, i think villain may well do this with a big hand trying to inflate the pot to get value from the hand, now and on the river.

As for the check raise discussion, its an interesting hand from this point of view. My general feeling is that a hand like top pair should almost never be played like this. We check raise for 2 reasons for value or to gain the most fold equity.

To do this for value our hand must be relative strong compared to our opponents range as our opponent must be willing to still put his money in with a relative strong holding, as our play looks super strong.

The second is to gain fold equity, essentially we can expect villain to fold the same amount of times no matter what our hand is whether its the nuts or 3 high. The interesting bit is what range villain calls with and how our hand plays against that range, thats why check raising all in with draws on the flop, less so the turn is not a bad play as our draws still get there quite abit of the time, even if villain has a set, overpair etc.

Hands like top pair have few ways to improve against a strong range and will have little equity. But do have showdown value therefore we want the bottom part of villains range to be still in the hand. This is normally best done by taking a passive line by check/calling.

Back to the hand, which has a bit of both it has top pair strength but also can improve by hitting the gutshot or making top two pair, or top trips. Im still in favour of siding with its top pair stength if we want to continue.

As said before I still like the check fold best.

[boldie]

The point is that if you anaylse hero's actions. his checkraise cannot have been planned which oddly enough he admits is the case.

You're right. It wasn't planned. I was going to check fold. But the bet size felt like much more like a draw than any hand that was ahead, so I revised my decision.

That's really my point and my question. Did the bet size feel like that to anyone else? Even if it did, how much weight can we really place on that reading? Whether or not it was planned is by the by. A piece of information changed my decision. Is that wrong?

no it is not. But you have to ask yourself how reliable that piece of information is when taking into account that you don't know the player.

[MANTIS01]

Why bet the flop? The motivation for doing so is important imo. My reasons would be that....potentially I have the best hand and so check-folding to a bet would not be an option. Also, against 5 oppos you probably wont have the best hand at the end, so you must thin the field. I don't want to check-call, because the bets from the aggressor are going to get bigger through the streets and I am never going to know where I am or what it's going to cost me to get to showdown. So if I don't improve I am check-calling only to check-fold later. And also because I want to be the aggressor.

So if I want to play the hand, which I may not, I feel I must bet. So I bet and get one caller. My bet has successfully achieved the goal of thinning the field to just one flat-calling oppo. Good.

Why bet the turn? The motivation for doing so is important imo. To check the turn my reasons for betting the flop must now be redundant....but why are they? I can't assume I no longer have the best hand because one oppo called. Why would I now check-fold because the  arrives when I didn't want to check-fold the flop? It is still possible that I wont have the best hand at the end so I wouldn't mind thinning the field i.e. winning the pot. I also want to put money in with the best hand right? And of course I still see the advantage in being the aggressor.

So I don't get why my tactics would change so dramatically from flop to turn just because one oppo called 150.

All the reasons I bet the flop would still be relevant on the turn.....so I would bet. Furthermore I now have another reason to bet, and that is if I don't, my oppo probably will. So my bet is blocker/value rolled into one. The pot on the turn is 480 so I would bet 320. I don't think my oppo raises here because if he wanted to play a draw aggrressively he would have done so on the flop. If he does come over the top now I figure he had me beat on the flop. I can still get away from the hand....something you can't do when you c-r all-in.

I will probably check-call the river because checking the river gives my oppo a chance to bluff a missed draw which he can't do if I pot-commit with a bet. Calling all-in on the river is getting the same amount of chips into the pot by c-raising all-in on the turn. The only difference is that my oppo may fold a worse hand on the turn....but I may get that worse hand putting all his chips in on the river. It is quite possible a danger card may appear on the river and then it's decision time...but I don't think the  on the turn is such a danger card and so continuing with my motivation that leads me to bet the flop is still relevant here imo.

[totalise]

I will probably check-call the river because checking the river gives my oppo a chance to bluff a missed draw which he can't do if I pot-commit with a bet. Calling all-in on the river is getting the same amount of chips into the pot by c-raising all-in on the turn. The only difference is that my oppo may fold a worse hand on the turn...

thats obviously not the only difference lol,  c/r allin on the turn gets him to potentially stack off with the draw that you want to bluff you on the river when it misses... and if he folds a worse made hand on the turn, then its highly unlikely he is gonna bet the river with it, as he will probably check it down and get to showdown... so check calling lets you get yourself into a negative freeroll almost


I also think a lot of people are getting addicted to fancy play syndrome, of course you aren't check-raising this turn on a bluff, you have top pair in a very small stakes tournament, the day people fold KJ/QJ with any regularity in this spot is the day that 4+4 equals an ashtray. You c/r here for value and for protection, if he folds a draw you dont lose out much in terms of equity, and people do call with worse made hands.

[MANTIS01]

C-raising all-in on the turn is only ok if you DO have the best hand. If you don't have the best hand you are OUT. So this is the major disadvantage of that play. Also betting the turn doesn't deny your oppo the opportunity to stack off with a draw....he is still free to do that....in fact pushing with his draw is a million times more appealing to him than calling all-in with it.

Moreover you can bet the turn for value/protection as much as you can c-raise all-in for it.

Your check on the turn does allow your oppo a free shot at his draw however....something betting does not.

[totalise]

C-raising all-in on the turn is only ok if you DO have the best hand. If you don't have the best hand you are OUT

the same applies if you check/call the river and he shows you a set so i cant see your point.

[MANTIS01]

Yes buddy, if he shows a set we both go out. There are a number of other advantages to betting the turn though and I have highlighted them.

[totalise]

Yes buddy, if he shows a set we both go out. There are a number of other advantages to betting the turn though and I have highlighted them.

yeah, im not saying that bettin the turn is bad, but I think pushing the turn after we check is far superior to just calling and then check/calling the river.

[MANTIS01]

Absolutely agree, I wouldn't think of check-calling the turn.

[totalise]

Absolutely agree, I wouldn't think of check-calling the turn.

ah in that case i apologise, for some reason i thought you advocated calling the turn after we checked and then doing the same on the river.

[Royal Flush]

Am i the only one check raising the flop?

[doubleup]

Am i the only one check raising the flop?

You would certainly find out where you were if you c-rsd into several bods.

[MANTIS01]

I think check-raising the flop is a valid enough alternative.

Personally speaking I bet the flop here because I also bet a set in the same circumstances, and so it's a matter of consistency for me. In addition, I find that early in these tournaments people will call a flop check-raise as readily and thoughtlessly as they will call a bet or they will instantly jam instead. I would be more tempted to use this tactic later when the pots are meatier and the move has more of an impact.

[Royal Flush]

Personally speaking I bet the flop here because I also bet a set in the same circumstances

How often do you bet the same players in online comps?

Am i the only one check raising the flop?

You would certainly find out where you were if you c-rsd into several bods.

lol, trying to tilt me?