Ready to call then.....

[PocketLady]

We are checkraising to get him off the hand.  JJ is a dangerous hand, it can be outdrawn so easily (usually by overs obv)  And look, oops, we've been outdrawn on the river.  I just can't understand anyone wanting their opponent to see all 5 cards for free with JJ when we are most likely up against two over cards.  Ok let's look at this from a simple point of view.  We are winning pre flop, on the flop, and on the turn.  But then we don't even know where on earth we stand because we havent done anything to find out.

If you manage to get him to stick it in with the worst hand pre or on the flop then that's all good.  And unlucky, bad beat from the turn and river.  But don't just let him have it.

[NoflopsHomer]

We are checkraising to get him off the hand.

What hands that you aren't already beating do you get him off?

[Royal Flush]

We are checkraising to get him off the hand.  JJ is a dangerous hand, it can be outdrawn so easily (usually by overs obv)  And look, oops, we've been outdrawn on the river.  I just can't understand anyone wanting their opponent to see all 5 cards for free with JJ when we are most likely up against two over cards.  Ok let's look at this from a simple point of view.  We are winning pre flop, on the flop, and on the turn.  But then we don't even know where on earth we stand because we havent done anything to find out.

If you manage to get him to stick it in with the worst hand pre or on the flop then that's all good.  And unlucky, bad beat from the turn and river.  But don't just let him have it.

scaredofoutdrawaments vs stackingabluffingopponentaments

One is very poor tournament poker

[Royal Flush]

We are checkraising to get him off the hand.

What hands that you aren't already beating do you get him off?

That's the funny thing floppy, the idea is to get them off their 6-2 outter!

[I KNOW IT]

Did you call or fold to the bet on the river btw?

[LuckyLloyd]

We are checkraising to get him off the hand.  JJ is a dangerous hand, it can be outdrawn so easily (usually by overs obv)  And look, oops, we've been outdrawn on the river.  I just can't understand anyone wanting their opponent to see all 5 cards for free with JJ when we are most likely up against two over cards.  Ok let's look at this from a simple point of view.  We are winning pre flop, on the flop, and on the turn.  But then we don't even know where on earth we stand because we havent done anything to find out.

If you manage to get him to stick it in with the worst hand pre or on the flop then that's all good.  And unlucky, bad beat from the turn and river.  But don't just let him have it.

I'll put Floppy's questions as simply and as clearly as possible:

If you check / raise this flop or lead for the pot on this flop:

1) what better hands do you believe they fold?
2) what worse hands do you believe they call with?

[LuckyLloyd]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  11,880  games     0.005 secs     2,376,000  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    73.485%     73.48%    00.00%              8730            0.00   { JcJs }
Hand 1:    26.515%     26.52%    00.00%              3150            0.00   { AKo }

[PocketLady]

In my opinion, everyone should be scared of getting outdrawn in a tournament.  I know that one of my weaknesses in tournaments it that sometimes I play my big hands too strongly because I don't want to get outdrawn, but in this situation we have every reason to believe its possible. I am looking to get them off any hand that has not hit the flop.  The bet on the flop means nothing.  You have checked to him and he has put in the obligatory continuation bet.  Early position raise suggests we are beating AK AJ 1010 99 88 and losing to AQ AA KK QQ.  Either way, we can find out.  What happens if another overcard appears on the turn?  I'm sorry I just don't advocate giving free cards when we have the winning hand albeit not a very strong one.     

If we think we're are behind on the flop do we call?  If not then we are effectively slow playing an extremely vulnerable hand which is madness.

[KarmaDope]

Played as it is until the flop comes:

We check, he bets. If we're ahead, why are we flat calling? Raise now, get his money in there! If we're behind, why are we calling again? Check calling is screaming "I've got a weak hand".  With Jacks on that flop I want to find out where I am ASAP. I would lead out, if I get raised, I'm done with the hand. If I get called, then I proceed with caution. If he folds, fair enough.

[PocketLady]

I understand what has been said about the chances of getting outdrawn, but why risk it.  There is no need.  If the turn comes an ace and he puts in a big bet you would almost certainly be thinking "I should have raised the flop"

[GlasgowBandit]

Played as it is until the flop comes:

We check, he bets. If we're ahead, why are we flat calling? Raise now, get his money in there! If we're behind, why are we calling again? Check calling is screaming "I've got a weak hand".  With Jacks on that flop I want to find out where I am ASAP. I would lead out, if I get raised, I'm done with the hand. If I get called, then I proceed with caution. If he folds, fair enough.

Good post!

[Royal Flush]

Played as it is until the flop comes:

We check, he bets. If we're ahead, why are we flat calling? Raise now, get his money in there! If we're behind, why are we calling again? Check calling is screaming "I've got a weak hand".  With Jacks on that flop I want to find out where I am ASAP. I would lead out, if I get raised, I'm done with the hand. If I get called, then I proceed with caution. If he folds, fair enough.

Your line vs a decent player means you just do chips in.


Lets see, you check raise me there i am only getting it in with better hands than you, so you get it in behind.

If you lead i raise you 100% of the time, unless i have a set. So you fold a better hand or get in a bigger pot where you are oop.

You never win chips with this approach.

[Royal Flush]

I understand what has been said about the chances of getting outdrawn, but why risk it.  There is no need.

Basically it works like this:

Say there are 100 players in a tournament who all start with 2000 chips, the player who ends up with 200,000 chips wins the most money.

[PocketLady]

I think you'll find the idea in a tournament is to win chips AND not lose them

[MANTIS01]

If the standard line is to check-call the flop with Jacks with the intention of "check-folding most turns" then I'm glad I want no part of it....because that's just horrible. We check-fold here because the  appears?? I am completely befuddled by such a pointless chip-wasting strat.

I think we would make more progress on this thread if it was accepted that the "you only get worse to fold" idea is understood by the majority of posters but the reason it's not a great strat is because Jacks aren't a great hand and your position is vulnerable. You must risk assess in tournament poker. Voluntarily going through all the streets with just one pair, donating chips, while thinking you're somehow in control of the hand, is not good tournament poker. There are only so many times you can check-call and then check-fold before you have no more chips left.

Posted by: Royal Flush

If you lead i raise you 100% of the time

Which is the very reason I lead geez.