Ready to call then.....

[Royal Flush]

So we are saying he is an average player with no real flair.

You lead into him on Q hi he prob flats or folds with the smaller pairs, raises AA/KK and maybe QQ. AJ he folds, AQ he raises AK who knows. KQ raises.

Why let him off when he has smaller pair (2 outs) AJ (3 outs) or AK (6 outs)?

So check-raising the flop is probably the best play, yes?

2nd best after check calling.

Why? If you CR, you know where you are. If you CC...you have no clue where you are. He could have any 2...

Check raising tells me i am either miles ahead or miles behind and it costs me about 8k in chips. Something i already know.

Check calling costs me 2k and keeps his range open to bluffing.

Why are you so determined to know where you are rather than win chips?

How often have you heard the top players in the world say "i raised to find out where i was"

[GlasgowBandit]

How often have you heard the top players in the world say "i raised to find out where i was"

I heard Robert Williamson 111 say this last night a few times.

FWIW I reckon the mistake in this hand was not 3-betting pre.  If we did then it makes our oppos hand a lot easier to define on the flop.  Assuming he calls that is. 

[KarmaDope]

So we are saying he is an average player with no real flair.

You lead into him on Q hi he prob flats or folds with the smaller pairs, raises AA/KK and maybe QQ. AJ he folds, AQ he raises AK who knows. KQ raises.

Why let him off when he has smaller pair (2 outs) AJ (3 outs) or AK (6 outs)?

So check-raising the flop is probably the best play, yes?

2nd best after check calling.

Why? If you CR, you know where you are. If you CC...you have no clue where you are. He could have any 2...

Check raising tells me i am either miles ahead or miles behind and it costs me about 8k in chips. Something i already know.

Check calling costs me 2k and keeps his range open to bluffing.

Why are you so determined to know where you are rather than win chips?

How often have you heard the top players in the world say "i raised to find out where i was"

Quite a few times...

Knowing where I am is one of the important parts of the hand imo, because then I know whether I'm gonna win chips or lose chips. Much rather win a few than lose loads...

[MANTIS01]

I think it's important to recognise that winning RISK FREE chips is ok in a tournament. On a perfect day, when the sun is shining and things are falling into place you will never get outdrawn.

But you do get outdrawn, and you get outdrawn a lot. If you pinch and pressure your oppo in order to take down chips with zero risk this builds your stack. Then, when you get a decent strength hand you can explore ways to get worse to dump into you in order to make the most of the opportunity. While you still acknowledge the risk in doing this you have padded your stack with earlier risk free chips...so on the occasions that you do get caught you are still alive.

If you take the high risk approach in every hand including e.g oop with Jacks, your tournament will just be a long-shot high-risk accumulation of plays. While it can be argued that in isolation each individual play has merit I think if you play tournaments like this as a whole you will make life very difficult for yourself.

[PocketLady]

I think it's important to recognise that winning RISK FREE chips is ok in a tournament. On a perfect day, when the sun is shining and things are falling into place you will never get outdrawn.

But you do get outdrawn, and you get outdrawn a lot. If you pinch and pressure your oppo in order to take down chips with zero risk this builds your stack. Then, when you get a decent strength hand you can explore ways to get worse to dump into you in order to make the most of the opportunity. While you still acknowledge the risk in doing this you have padded your stack with earlier risk free chips...so on the occasions that you do get caught you are still alive.

If you take the high risk approach in every hand including e.g oop with Jacks, your tournament will just be a long-shot high-risk accumulation of plays. While it can be argued that in isolation each individual play has merit I think if you play tournaments like this as a whole you will make life very difficult for yourself.

Good post.  I couldn't agree more

[NoflopsHomer]

The high risk approach with Jacks is to check/raise and hope.

[UpTheMariners]

interesting to see pab play this the same way as me pre flop on his vid 'in the well' hand 251.

[MANTIS01]

In hand 251 pab c-raises his oppo all-in on the flop with jacks. In this hand you c-call your oppo on the flop with jacks.

How is that the same?

[UpTheMariners]

interesting to see pab play this the same way as me pre flop on his vid 'in the well' hand 251.

obv the flop play is different because the texture is not the same as my board.

[MANTIS01]

Agreed that he called a bet pre-flop with Jacks.

But I think the essence of this thread was whether it was a worthwhile risk to c-call all the way. In hand 251 pab doesn't think it is and plays it strongly. I don't think highlighting that he played pre-flop the same provides evidence to show the strat is a good one for the hand as a whole. I think it only goes to strengthen the case of those who were looking to press the hand on the flop.

[UpTheMariners]

Agreed that he called a bet pre-flop with Jacks.

But I think the essence of this thread was whether it was a worthwhile risk to c-call all the way. In hand 251 pab doesn't think it is and plays it strongly. I don't think highlighting that he played pre-flop the same provides evidence to show the strat is a good one for the hand as a whole. I think it only goes to strengthen the case of those who were looking to press the hand on the flop.

so it doesnt matter what comes down?

[Rookie (Rodney)]

of course not

[UpTheMariners]

 

[Rookie (Rodney)]

[MANTIS01]

I am thinking about the line you took in the hand Mariners. And the line you took in the hand is completely different to the line pab took. This is why I think saying look how pab played it the same as me is way off the mark.

Your strat was to softly c-call with Jacks because if you played them strongly only better would call. When pab strongly c-raises all-in it is reasonable to say that he gets worse to fold a lot and usually only better will call. So his mentality with the hand is completely different to yours.

Yes, the texture of the boards are different, but not to any great degree. One overcard, which is not an A or K, wouldn't change my strat so significantly from a pressing one to a c-calling one. So yes, he called a bet pre-flop with Jacks, but his strat with them after that is very different. So I was just puzzled why you would make a comparison with something that isn't the same.

In fact pab should have more scope to c-call with Jacks knowing that he is almost certainly ahead on that flop. So why would he want to play them strongly and get worse to fold?

He uses your strat in hand 58, and this is even though the texture of the flop is the same as hand 251. It is only the RISK of outdraw damage that is significantly different here.