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Author Topic: Rebuy questions - Bankroll, Style, Structure etc  (Read 2892 times)
FuglyBaz
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« on: June 03, 2008, 11:39:46 AM »

I've played more cash than tournaments this past 12 months, and played well enough but variance has been against me. Fancy a change so am going to try and play a couple of the tournaments, but the only ones that seem available (and semi affordable) are the rebuys.

I live in North B'ham (Erdington, Sutton Coldfield and that way) and dont drive - just things to consider.

I've seen various advice given on bankroll ie 20 x Buy-in for Cash 75 x Buy-in for Tournaments. But with regards to Rebuys how many buy-ins should I need? Surely it would be a lot more?

Personally I hate the rebuy tournaments because the play is so ridiculous but beggars really cannot be choosers. I do not have the bankroll to be paying £100 + juice + expenses a time to play freezeouts up at Walsall or anywhere else they pop up.

Style of play - I know this sounds like a ridiculous question but the play is so poor here do you ship and gamble chips a lot more in rebuy, or do you play like a freezeout? I've always played rebuys like a freezeout as I'd hate to think that I'm bad enough to buy in 4 or 5 times in one night. As a result it's made reaching final table impossible, but I refuse to play bad poker like the other guys. Just sickening when you get 7 other guys call your big hands in the rebuy period.

Also what is the best structure to go for? From the small experience I had playing them before the average stack was never any more than 15-17 BB after the break. But blinds go 100-200 200-400 300-600 400-800 500-1000 1000-2000 in two of the casinos Ive played at (Castle Hill in Dudley and Star City in Nechells)

Sorry if I haven't worded anything particularly well. Would be grateful for any help I can get

Cheers
Baz
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jakally
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 12:16:54 PM »

I've played more cash than tournaments this past 12 months, and played well enough but variance has been against me. Fancy a change so am going to try and play a couple of the tournaments, but the only ones that seem available (and semi affordable) are the rebuys.

I live in North B'ham (Erdington, Sutton Coldfield and that way) and dont drive - just things to consider.

I've seen various advice given on bankroll ie 20 x Buy-in for Cash 75 x Buy-in for Tournaments. But with regards to Rebuys how many buy-ins should I need? Surely it would be a lot more?

Personally I hate the rebuy tournaments because the play is so ridiculous but beggars really cannot be choosers. I do not have the bankroll to be paying £100 + juice + expenses a time to play freezeouts up at Walsall or anywhere else they pop up.

Style of play - I know this sounds like a ridiculous question but the play is so poor here do you ship and gamble chips a lot more in rebuy, or do you play like a freezeout? I've always played rebuys like a freezeout as I'd hate to think that I'm bad enough to buy in 4 or 5 times in one night. As a result it's made reaching final table impossible, but I refuse to play bad poker like the other guys. Just sickening when you get 7 other guys call your big hands in the rebuy period.

Also what is the best structure to go for? From the small experience I had playing them before the average stack was never any more than 15-17 BB after the break. But blinds go 100-200 200-400 300-600 400-800 500-1000 1000-2000 in two of the casinos Ive played at (Castle Hill in Dudley and Star City in Nechells)

Sorry if I haven't worded anything particularly well. Would be grateful for any help I can get

Cheers
Baz

I'm no expert on rebuys (or tournaments in general for that matter).

But it strikes me like it may be a bad idea for you to play them at this stage.

Personally I hate the rebuy tournaments
Firstly looks like you may be going in with the wrong approach!

I've always played rebuys like a freezeout as I'd hate to think that I'm bad enough to buy in 4 or 5 times in one night.
If you play like this you are going to put yourself at a disadvantage to the rest of the field.

IMO you got to be prepared to rebuy at least 2 or 3 times.
Doesn't mean you will have to do this, but gives you the back up to make moves that will give you a chance of building a stack.

If travelling distance is the problem (i.e. you are restricted to one venue that doesn't offer the right tourneys), why don't you find out where there are tourneys that suit you, and post on here to see if anyone can give you a lift.

GL.
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gatso
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 12:29:20 PM »


Style of play - I know this sounds like a ridiculous question but the play is so poor here do you ship and gamble chips a lot more in rebuy, or do you play like a freezeout? I've always played rebuys like a freezeout as I'd hate to think that I'm bad enough to buy in 4 or 5 times in one night. As a result it's made reaching final table impossible, but I refuse to play bad poker like the other guys.

for now I suggest you stop worrying about the number of buy-ins needed or the structure as until you change your attitude towards rebuys you're better off avoiding them altogether.

what you perceive as others playing bad poker is in most cases people playing correctly for a rebuy situation. you are the one playing badly by playing them as a freezeout making you the dead money in the tournament.


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Raindogs
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 12:39:05 PM »

I've seen various advice given on bankroll ie 20 x Buy-in for Cash 75 x Buy-in for Tournaments. But with regards to Rebuys how many buy-ins should I need? Surely it would be a lot more?

I tend to limit myself to a maximum of 3 RB's and the top up.  If there is a small field I may quit before that if the prize pool is going to be small ie. if 10th is only paying 6 buyins.  I play at the Broadway (Five Ways) on Friday and they have changed the top up to 2000 chips so you can now get 3500 chips at the break if you rebuy (if you have 500 or less) and top up.

Quote
Style of play - I know this sounds like a ridiculous question but the play is so poor here do you ship and gamble chips a lot more in rebuy, or do you play like a freezeout? I've always played rebuys like a freezeout as I'd hate to think that I'm bad enough to buy in 4 or 5 times in one night. As a result it's made reaching final table impossible, but I refuse to play bad poker like the other guys. Just sickening when you get 7 other guys call your big hands in the rebuy period.

I tend to play loose in the first round and try to get to the 500 chip mark so I can RB to get upto 1500 chips.  In the Rebuy period in early position I will often limp with a big hand if I think there is a good chance I will get raised.  If you are going to open in early postion during ther Rebuy period  6 BB is the minimum in my experience.  Anything less and you can end up with a string of callers.  As always it depends on the table.   In late position if there is more than 2 limpers I will shove unless the table is very passive and a shove will get no callers.

Quote
Also what is the best structure to go for? From the small experience I had playing them before the average stack was never any more than 15-17 BB after the break. But blinds go 100-200 200-400 300-600 400-800 500-1000 1000-2000 in two of the casinos Ive played at (Castle Hill in Dudley and Star City in Nechells)

Most of the structures a lousy.  The Broadway isn't too bad and the levels are 45 x 2 and 25 min afterwards.

There is a good choice of venues in Birmingham and some of them offer freezeouts (Broadway and Gala that I know of).  Check the results pages to see the various options.  I think that only the Broadway and Star City are dealer delt.
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AndrewT
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 12:42:28 PM »

If you're shying away from cash games because you're sick of variance, playing MTTs is not the route to take, as the variance is higher than cash.
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boldie
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 03:45:10 PM »

If you're shying away from cash games because you're sick of variance, playing MTTs is not the route to take, as the variance is higher than cash.

Thank you, that saves me saying it.

Rebuys are the dogs bollox, filled with gamblers with too much money on one hand and on the other hand players who play only play QQ+. Rebuys are where all the value is.
Number of buy-ins is not something you should think about when going to play a rebuy..just adapt as the night goes on.If you feel you have an edge but you have gotten a unlucky a few times then you just need to rebuy even though it might be nr 5 or 6.
From a bankroll perspective you won't be far wrong if you say a 10'er rebuy is a 50£ freezeout..sometimes you might need more sometimes you won't have any rebuys..but that doesn't mean you can only spend 50£ on each tourney.

There is nothing wrong with 4 or 5 rebuys in a tourney..only terrible rebuy players say this. (No offense Baz but you really have to rethink that one)

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FuglyBaz
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 05:10:58 PM »

If travelling distance is the problem (i.e. you are restricted to one venue that doesn't offer the right tourneys), why don't you find out where there are tourneys that suit you, and post on here to see if anyone can give you a lift.

Thats a great suggestion mate. I'd always feel cheeky asking tbh but its worth a try.

For now I suggest you stop worrying about the number of buy-ins needed or the structure as until you change your attitude towards rebuys you're better off avoiding them altogether.

What you perceive as others playing bad poker is in most cases people playing correctly for a rebuy situation. you are the one playing badly by playing them as a freezeout making you the dead money in the tournament.

I'll take your point on board re: number of rebuys/structure. It's good sensible advice.

However I just want to clarify a few things regarding play in a freezeout situation. Two hands in particular came up where I got stacked as massive favourite yesterday, and I really don't believe the villains should've called.

First hand of the session (25/50)I got AK. UTG raised to 250, 5 folds to me I call and the other players fold (12 to a table). I rarely flat call AK but the guy who raised always reads a newspaper until he gets JJ+/AJ+. So I thought calling was the best play as I had position. Flop comes AK4. Villain checks so I put in my last 750 chips and he insta calls with QQ! Cue the Queen on the river for a splendid two out.

Good play or bad play in a rebuy period by my opponent?

About 5 hands later (25/50) I get KQo in an unraised pot (My stack was about 800). I was one off the CO and raised to 200. Flat call by the button (appx 5,500 stack) and the blinds. Flop comes K93 rainbow. I bet the last 600 chips as any bet commits me anyway (fair enough yes?) and then a quick call by the small blind. He flips over 83 and hits an 8 on the turn to make two pair.

I even had KK and had to fold PF when some Chinese kid limped UTG then shoved after my raise. I pissed myself laughing when I folded and someone else called because I knew the kid had the rockets, while the caller had 99 (I never knew that hand Cheesy)

I ain't trying to turn this into a bad beat thread as sometimes I go in behind too. But I rarely make horrific calls with bottom pair shit kicker against someone who obviously has the top pair.

If someone can say if any of the above is bad rebuy play then please do, because I need to know. I havent read a poker book which focuses on rebuys, just the typical freezeout format. So if Rebuy play is different then I'd appreciate knowing the big differences.

My little observations - £5 rebuy everybody goes all in every hand. Which has happened at virtually every fiver one I've been to. £10 rebuys usually see 2 or 3 all ins which are just ace rag card catch contests. I don't know about any higher but I guess they are 'I've got a bigger wallet than you' affairs.

If you're shying away from cash games because you're sick of variance, playing MTTs is not the route to take, as the variance is higher than cash.

I'm aware of this fact. I'm just hoping that getting used to sicker levels of variance in tournaments might make me immune to bad beats in cash games. Not immune to bad luck but the feelings I get when bad beats happen statistically more than they should. At least if it happens more in a tournament I'll be more used to it.

Rebuys are the dogs bollox, filled with gamblers with too much money on one hand and on the other hand players who play only play QQ+. Rebuys are where all the value is.
Number of buy-ins is not something you should think about when going to play a rebuy..just adapt as the night goes on.If you feel you have an edge but you have gotten a unlucky a few times then you just need to rebuy even though it might be nr 5 or 6.
From a bankroll perspective you won't be far wrong if you say a 10'er rebuy is a 50£ freezeout..sometimes you might need more sometimes you won't have any rebuys..but that doesn't mean you can only spend 50£ on each tourney.

There is nothing wrong with 4 or 5 rebuys in a tourney..only terrible rebuy players say this. (No offense Baz but you really have to rethink that one)

Why would I be offended at your last comment Boldie? At the end of the day I've opened up to the forum and shown a massive weakness in my approach to rebuys. I want honest answers - so I'm not offended in the slightest buddy. Smiley

Your first comment rings true. At Star City I have to say (and ifm may agree with me here) there seems to be more of the 'gamblers' rather than the ultra tight players.

The number of rebuys thinking I must admit stems from what a table captain said to me when I first ever played a live game. He said to me 'if you buy in three or four times then there's no point playing as you can't be any good at poker'. I'd heard a few others say things similar, and even one who won the tournament but said something to the effect of "I won the tournament but I played crap I bought in 7 or 8 times"

So it's flawed thinking from what others have said really. Perhaps for my style of play rebuys are best avoided, and I should just stick to convention freezeout poker and cash games.

Raindog mentioned Gala for cash games, and I have to say their mixed game (Holdem, 4/5/6 PLO, Pineapple, Crazy Pineapple and Irish) is a good game. Played as £1/£2 but I'm not really rolled to play $400 at all. Just wish they offered Razz Sad
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 05:20:16 PM »

About 5 hands later (25/50) I get KQo in an unraised pot (My stack was about 800). I was one off the CO and raised to 200. Flat call by the button (appx 5,500 stack) and the blinds. Flop comes K93 rainbow. I bet the last 600 chips as any bet commits me anyway (fair enough yes?) and then a quick call by the small blind. He flips over 83 and hits an 8 on the turn to make two pair.

I even had KK and had to fold PF when some Chinese kid limped UTG then shoved after my raise. I pissed myself laughing when I folded and someone else called because I knew the kid had the rockets, while the caller had 99 (I never knew that hand Cheesy)

LOLz

Ok what do you do with AJ in the first hand?

Passing KK pre in a rebuy, please don't do this ever again.
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 05:43:37 PM »


First hand of the session (25/50)I got AK. UTG raised to 250, 5 folds to me I call and the other players fold (12 to a table).

are you serious? you're playing 12 handed?
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 05:46:29 PM »


First hand of the session (25/50)I got AK. UTG raised to 250, 5 folds to me I call and the other players fold (12 to a table).

are you serious? you're playing 12 handed?

Whats that about never ever heard of more than 10 on a table its a squeeze at that
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FuglyBaz
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 06:03:31 PM »

LOLz

Ok what do you do with AJ in the first hand?

Passing KK pre in a rebuy, please don't do this ever again.

What would I with AJ as opposed to my first AK hand? Against the player who raised I would fold. Why? Because as I said before he reads a paper or book until he gets a hand JJ+ or AQ+. His range is miles ahead of mine. He does this even in cash games his style never changes.

Against the maniacs or LAGs who's face I recognise I would reshove in a rebuy early doors and if I don't know them I would either fold or flat call depending on what I gather from them before the tournament starts - ie if its their first time playing etc. Its amazing how many guys admit its their first time playing live!

Passing KK in a rebuy I would never usually do, but that limp UTG and reraise smells of aces. Don't you agree? It's a common move I seem to see in low stakes games online and not just Hold'em, but Omaha as well.

I hope the LOLz isn't a piss take I'm being genuine

First hand of the session (25/50)I got AK. UTG raised to 250, 5 folds to me I call and the other players fold (12 to a table).

are you serious? you're playing 12 handed?

Whats that about never ever heard of more than 10 on a table its a squeeze at that

Absolutely serious! They had 5 tables three had 12 and two had 11
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 06:05:13 PM »

No the hand i quoted with KQ.

People limp re-raise more than just AA!!
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 06:08:42 PM »

In a freezeout limp re-raise UTG has a fair chance of being AA or KK, but in a rebuy people do this with tons of hands, if nothing else to generate a big pot and then rebuy if they don't hit.  Like you, I dislike rebuys - if it's a £20 rebuy and I budget for 4 rebuys, I'd rather find a well structured £100 freezeout of which there are plenty around.
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FuglyBaz
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 06:11:58 PM »

No the hand i quoted with KQ.

People limp re-raise more than just AA!!

Sorry Flushy I should've realised that when you quoted the KQ hand specifically *blushes*

I suppose as the aggressor pre flop I need to put in that C-bet. My stack is pretty short so any bet commits me so I would c-bet all in same as I did with the top pair. It gives me two ways to win then as I can take the pot down uncontested or still have some outs (though I'm uncomfortable with being a big dog at this point.

As for the limp re-raise, I've got to say that I haven't seen a limp reraise with KK or QQ yet! But again I probably do not play enough poker to see this happen. If this is a common move with JJ up (why do it with JJ???) then I guess I need to shrug shoulders and call.
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 06:48:44 PM »

No the hand i quoted with KQ.

People limp re-raise more than just AA!!

Sorry Flushy I should've realised that when you quoted the KQ hand specifically *blushes*

I suppose as the aggressor pre flop I need to put in that C-bet. My stack is pretty short so any bet commits me so I would c-bet all in same as I did with the top pair. It gives me two ways to win then as I can take the pot down uncontested or still have some outs (though I'm uncomfortable with being a big dog at this point.

As for the limp re-raise, I've got to say that I haven't seen a limp reraise with KK or QQ yet! But again I probably do not play enough poker to see this happen. If this is a common move with JJ up (why do it with JJ???) then I guess I need to shrug shoulders and call.

don't ever fold QQ+ in a rebuy mate..most rebuys your Queens will be soo far ahead it's frightening. I have been in situations where 5 people go all in pre-flop and the best hand is KQ/KJ or something like that. Also..if two or three people go all in and a decent player calls he doesn't even need to have AA/KK or anything like that..suited connectors work very nicely in that situation.

BTW..all the examples that you've quoted of terrible play during the rebuy period is what creates the value. That's where you get your chipstack from. You can hear loads of people say "Well, this is where the real poker starts" when the rebuy period is finished. Take a note of all those guys as it probably just means they'll become rocks all of a sudden...and they are probably all awful as well.
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