How did I get into this mess?

[keilan303]

Find myself short stacked (yellow zone) a few hands into a tournament in the first level. Lost a big pot with AQ suited that didn't  connect with a flop and had to muck it, and took a hit trying to slowplay a pair and let someone catch trips with a garbage hand.

Table seemed fairly tight and I reckoned the only way I could get back in the game was to start mixing it up.

Open in middle position for 3.5 x BB with , not the best of hands, but at the very least, picking up the blinds would help, if I am just called then i am putting someone on a pair, then I will make a move at the pot if an ace comes down providing it is checked to me.

UTG limper calls, and someone behind him calls. They are roughly average stacked (10k) raise brings current bet up to 700. I have about 4000 behind. 3 way to the pot.

Flop comes

UTG bets 1200 into 3000 pot. Player behind him calls. Pot is now 5400 and I have under 4000 left. If I could pick up this pot now I am back to average stack and then I can go back to the patient game.

UTG player called one of my previous raises with ace jack off, I checked all the way to the end (I had KQ, and caught a K on the turn) He bets out at the river and I snap call to see his cards. So I am imagining he most likely has an ace, but probably a weak one. I wonder if he is good enough to throw it away if he can put me on AK. The other player I know nothing about, but as he's just calling i reckon he's either also on a draw or has an under pair and wants to fish for a set.

With this info in mind, do i just fold and leave myself even more short stacked, or do I try the squeeze now and scoop this pot uncontested? I raised to 700 preflop, its not unreasonable for them to assume I have sixes or sevens and have hit a set and want the maximum value for it, but are they good enough to sense this is the case and fold? UTG seems fairly inexperienced player, what does his limp-call mean?

[Longy]

I would fold pre, if i am reading this right we are about 25bbs deep before the hand starts. This is not the time to get desperate yet plus these type of hands don't play that well this deep.

On the flop this really is a very simple muck, you are going to get called here an awful lot if you shove, with just a 4 outer to hit.

[EvilPie]

How did you get in to this mess?

You raised with  against a utg limper and presumably another limper who were both guaranteed to at least call.

Pass pre unless the pot is unopened or you are deep enough to play something other than shove / pass after the flop.

You can't really rep a set here. You've got position so surely you're flatting to extract the maximum if that's what you've got?

Next time pass pre. As played pass now very quickly because there's no way initial flop caller is passing for another 2800 when he's already called a 1200 bet.

[gatso]

you really need to take a look into what you consider as good bet sizing.

firstly preflop, you say that taking the blinds would be ok but a raise to 3.5BB from mp after an utg limper and a caller is going to take the blinds approx 0% of the time

secondly you're considering a shove with close to air into 2 players who've shown strength yet you're giving them over 3.5 to 1 to make the call. again this is going to succeed approx 0% of the time

[keilan303]

File under worst donk play I think. Cheers for the thoughts! My thinking was, next level (which wasn't far off) would see me at <10 BB and it would be all in or fold at this particular table. I took the gamble and shoved, it didn't pay off. UTG called, 2nd caller folded face up the sort of hand I was thinking i was up against (and unfortunately the only hand I could beat)   

UTG proudly flips over    - can't bluff a mug...

[kinboshi]

I'd be more interested in how you lost a significant chunk of your stack in the first few hands with AQ if you didn't hit; and also how you played your pair (was it AA or KK?) and again lost a large percentage of your stack so early.  These hands sound like the reason you got into that mess.

[booder]

Find myself short stacked (yellow zone) a few hands into a tournament in the first level. Lost a big pot with AQ suited that didn't  connect with a flop and had to muck it,

You shouldn't be playing a big pot in the first level after the flop with AQ if you miss the flop.

Open in middle position for 3.5 x BB with , not the best of hands, but at the very least, picking up the blinds would help, if I am just called then i am putting someone on a pair, then I will make a move at the pot if an ace comes down providing it is checked to me.

Why would only a pair be calling you and not Ace x  ?

[keilan303]

I, personally, would think that a big ace would reraise me to take down the pot there and then (This is what I did with my AQ suited and felt I had to follow it through on the flop, or I was just going to look like all my opening bets could be stolen on the flop). Thats the funny thing about poker, theres no right and wrong, but A6 to me is a simple muck UTG unless i am looking at winning the pot uncontested, hence why i put him on a pair. This is probably very wrong thinking, so if anyone can add any thoughts I'd like to hear it.

As for the pair (sixes) I just got the read wrong but I let it happen by not raising. In the first level I'd rather limp these hands and look to make a set, then muck it quickly if the board looks dangerous. The board didn't look to bad so I bet the turn and received a caller, the next card paired the board with the flop so I put in another big bet to try and say that I had hit that card on the flop, i was out of position and the other guy called, reckoning he was probably outkicked...very bad play on my part, but this was straight after losing with the ace....tilty....

[Royal Flush]

UTG proudly flips over    - can't bluff a mug...

There is little difference in talent between the 2 of you based on this hand.

[MC]

Open in middle position for 3.5 x BB with ,

UTG limper calls, and someone behind him calls.

You aren't opening in middle position if there are already two people in the pot.

Don't see the need to raise here with two limpers (especially an UTG limper, traditionally they will have a strong hand).

As played, you don't have enough chips to chase a 4-outer, and it's very likely someone hit an ace that they aren't folding, so this is a bad spot to bluff with your lack of fold equity.

[keilan303]

Open in middle position for 3.5 x BB with ,

UTG limper calls, and someone behind him calls.

You aren't opening in middle position if there are already two people in the pot.

Don't see the need to raise here with two limpers (especially an UTG limper, traditionally they will have a strong hand).

As played, you don't have enough chips to chase a 4-outer, and it's very likely someone hit an ace that they aren't folding, so this is a bad spot to bluff with your lack of fold equity.

Agree with this entirely, guess I just picked the wrong spot (although, looking at the hands they limped in, had they folded, or had the 89 hand been the only one still in, it could have been very different, at very least giviing me enough for 2 more orbits). I just knew one or two of the folk at this table were the bingo types who believe any ace can win if they see the flop cheaply enough, and that was the hands I wanted to drive out. UTG had been in most pots (including a crazy family pot where bottom set was checked all the way to showdown)

Given my stack size, and the fact the blinds were about to increase to the point where I was 10BB...should I just be sitting waiting for premium hands or are there other ways I should be getting into pots, is there room for much post flop play? I often feel when I have made a big comeback in a tournament, luck has been the only factor (all in pf and hitting a set, or calling all in middle pair on the flop when the chip leader was obviously on a draw) so this is an area of my (limited) game where I am suffering...

[MC]

Agree with this entirely, guess I just picked the wrong spot (although, looking at the hands they limped in, had they folded, or had the 89 hand been the only one still in, it could have been very different, at very least giviing me enough for 2 more orbits). I just knew one or two of the folk at this table were the bingo types who believe any ace can win if they see the flop cheaply enough, and that was the hands I wanted to drive out. UTG had been in most pots (including a crazy family pot where bottom set was checked all the way to showdown)

Given my stack size, and the fact the blinds were about to increase to the point where I was 10BB...should I just be sitting waiting for premium hands or are there other ways I should be getting into pots, is there room for much post flop play? I often feel when I have made a big comeback in a tournament, luck has been the only factor (all in pf and hitting a set, or calling all in middle pair on the flop when the chip leader was obviously on a draw) so this is an area of my (limited) game where I am suffering...

At least you appreciate this man, and you can learn from your mistake here.

You should just be looking for better spots. It's not wrong that you were thinking of taking advantage of the table, just too few chips to maneouver with this hand. If your read is that they are overvaluing aces, don't bet when there's an ace on the flop! But your A9 might look better when it gets dealt than normal.

I'd prefer to play all-in poker with 10bbs a round later - where you can shove a lot of hands in late position, or might wake up with something early/late, than make a move at this point with 8Ts.

[ACE2M]

In all fairness the hand is a horror story but at the beginning of your poker career the growth of knowledge is exponential. I reckon you could take at least 3 things that will be part of your basic tournament strategy forever from the replies given.

[MANTIS01]

You need to increase your self-awareness because at the moment you're getting all funky when your image is already in tatters. The last few hands have seen you just spew chips with no hand, so let's just relax for a sec, rock up, and showdown a solid hand next time. Then we can build an image that is funk-acceptable. If you only chastise UTG for his poor play you will fail to spot that his judgement of how his weak hand stacks up vs you is actually cock on the money.

Also, you can't say this...I just knew one or two of the folk at this table were the bingo types who believe any ace can win if they see the flop cheaply enough...and then build a strat around jamming an Ace high flop, especially without the image to back it up. Well you can but you will lose.

[AlexMartin]

Hi keilan, wp for posting. Next time its easier if you just post the outline (players/stacks/blinds/antes) first. Harringtons zones are imo a pile of bs too, just dont let urself get below 15X online and 10X live.

Re the hand - the problem is the open, with your stack size you need to be 3b shoving "restealing allin" over anyone with an excuse to open light when you have some FE. In this spot you are too shallow to open which complicates the whole hand. If say you had 10k on the flop given this action, i would shove (coz he never has a big hand/ has to call it off with some A10 type hand/ ur action looks super strong/ u at least have SOME equity if called), but ur giving too big a price to the guy that donk leads the flop with your stack.