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Author Topic: Broadway and Walsall main events  (Read 6272 times)
NoflopsHomer
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2009, 12:32:08 AM »

ul Tom, I think your analysis is right, you can't do anything there. Though I'd rather you raised pre!

cheers mate.

i actually dont like the raise pre. John Tabatabai was very active, and was in cut-off. if i raise i think he is likely to flat and take it off me on any non-8 flop. if i am not utg i may raise small and try and see a flop in position.

but of course the raise pre stops me from going bust Smiley

But by that extension of thinking, surely if no-one else limps he can raise preflop and take you off the flop anyway? Or even squeeze you out preflop with a big raise? Even if he does flat, he has to respect a UTG raise right?
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Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2009, 12:54:54 AM »

maybe maybe, but up to that point big pre-flop raises hadn't been his style. a few times he had min-raised pre in order to play flops with the betting lead, something that can only be good news for a hand i am playing to hit a set or give up

my thinking may be very different to others in this situation, but with small pairs (in which i include 88 and 99) i like to see a flop in a multi-way pot when the stacks are still deep.
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2009, 01:25:36 AM »

Raise pre and you are still in.

Limping makes your hand kinda transparent, i don't see how Kunku takes it off you on the flop surely you know how to call?
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Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2009, 01:40:59 AM »

Raise pre and you are still in.

Limping makes your hand kinda transparent, i don't see how Kunku takes it off you on the flop surely you know how to call?

yeah, as i said, raise pre and i am still in. dont think thats really the point though - it doesnt confirm raising as a better play. you may as well say "throw you cards at colclough and you are still in"

the point of raising pre-flop is not to avoid some kind of sick cooler, it is to either get value from a strong hand or because that hand plays well HU. by limping i am much more likely to be on the good end of a cooler. set vs overset is very unlikely if no pre-flop raise occurs and set vs. underset or two pair seem much more likely than set vs. an unlikely straight.

and of course i know how to call. thanks for the sarcasm. by raising in this spot i am likely to see a flop HU or 3-way. also, this is very likely to be against tabatabai, sitting in late position. when there is a player of absolute class at the table i dont actively seek to play pots against them out of position and put myself in a position to be exploited

lastly, i dont understand why limping makes my hand more transparent. i limp utg with a much wider range of hands than i raise with - any suited connectors, any small or medium pair, and occasinally big pairs too (though perhaps not in this early stage of a tournament). raising utg requires a stronger hand, meaning my range is reduced to medium-high pairs and big aces
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 02:29:07 AM by Numpty Dumpty » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 03:28:56 AM »

Raise pre and you are still in.

Limping makes your hand kinda transparent, i don't see how Kunku takes it off you on the flop surely you know how to call?

yeah, as i said, raise pre and i am still in. dont think thats really the point though - it doesnt confirm raising as a better play. you may as well say "throw you cards at colclough and you are still in"

the point of raising pre-flop is not to avoid some kind of sick cooler, it is to either get value from a strong hand or because that hand plays well HU. by limping i am much more likely to be on the good end of a cooler. set vs overset is very unlikely if no pre-flop raise occurs and set vs. underset or two pair seem much more likely than set vs. an unlikely straight.

and of course i know how to call. thanks for the sarcasm. by raising in this spot i am likely to see a flop HU or 3-way. also, this is very likely to be against tabatabai, sitting in late position. when there is a player of absolute class at the table i dont actively seek to play pots against them out of position and put myself in a position to be exploited

lastly, i dont understand why limping makes my hand more transparent. i limp utg with a much wider range of hands than i raise with - any suited connectors, any small or medium pair, and occasinally big pairs too (though perhaps not in this early stage of a tournament). raising utg requires a stronger hand, meaning my range is reduced to medium-high pairs and big aces

It's not limited to those hands if you start raising suited connectors UTG is it?

Limp calling raises with pairs to hit sets just doesn't work, unless you hit sets more than everyone else in which case, keep bleeding!

It's ok to play pots OOP vs better players when you already have a hand!

Just from this post it already appears that you sat at the table and decided everyone was better than you, so whatever you did it probably wouldn't have worked out to well because you would have spent the day levelling yourself, there is not much difference between the top players and you Tom, don't get intimidated.
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 05:25:25 AM »

J4 play is gutsy!  I wonder if he ever folds QQ there.

Raise 88 for sure, you're gonna win more by playing less players and cbetting frequently.  When it's a multi way limped pot and you bet, one of two things are happening: you're crushed or you're giving really bad reverse implied odds (ok and occasionally you set over set them).  This is cos your leading range is so tight (like you are never ever bluffing here).  When you raise you thin out the field, you get to take it down when you miss flops and you don't get put in tough situations where you're going to be getting it in bad more than you might think.
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Rupert
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 05:29:32 AM »

Quote
lastly, i dont understand why limping makes my hand more transparent. i limp utg with a much wider range of hands than i raise with - any suited connectors, any small or medium pair, and occasinally big pairs too (though perhaps not in this early stage of a tournament). raising utg requires a stronger hand, meaning my range is reduced to medium-high pairs and big aces

Not that being exploitable matters too much in your average GUKPT, but it sounds like you were at a tough table.  If Tabatabi estimates that to be your opening range (or any of the other good players) they're gonna isolate you a lot in position and you lose the pot really frequently postflop and when you do hit you get paid one cbet worth unless you happen to cooler them.
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