Genealogy

[pokefast]

Plus there are no birth records in either 1893 or 1894 for an Ann Argyle so the census of 1901 which says birth abt 1894 and the census of 1911 which says birth abt 1893 must be incorrectly filled in no?

[pokefast]

After a bit more digging ( not literally ) the Elizabeth Argyle nee Butlin that married Joesph Argyle in 1888 would appear to be the older sister of Daniel Butlin making Elizabath and Joseph Argyle my grandads great aunt and uncle thus ruling out Elizabeth and Joseph's Daughter Mary Ann Argyle ( born if you've been keeping up in 1896 not 1892! ) as my grandads mum.

This would leave the other Ann Argyle daughter of Daniel Butlin as the prime suspect. .

This though still doesn't explain why if Ann is the daughter of Daniel.

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

[Jon MW]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

[Jon MW]

After a bit more digging ( not literally ) the Elizabeth Argyle nee Butlin that married Joesph Argyle in 1888 would appear to be the older sister of Daniel Butlin making Elizabath and Joseph Argyle my grandads great aunt and uncle thus ruling out Elizabeth and Joseph's Daughter Mary Ann Argyle ( born if you've been keeping up in 1896 not 1892! ) as my grandads mum.
...

Wait I didn't really take this into account.

Might need to draw out a diagram of relations to make sense of it, which I can't do at the moment

[pokefast]

Yeah Elizabeth Argyle nee Butlin was born abt 1863 she appears in the census of 1871 as daughter to the head which is Daniel Butlin Senior. In the 1881 census Elizabeth Butlin now 18 is living in Northamptonshire with another family as servant. In 1891 she is now Elizabeth Argyle having married Joseph Argyle in 1888.So she pretty well ties up ok + i know the whereabouts of the grave of Elizabeth and Joseph Argyle because i saw it yesterday in Bulkington cemetary.

However i believe that Daniel Butlin jnr born abt 1868 is the brother of above Elizabeth Butlin because he appears in the 1901 census as son to the head ( the head being Daniel Butlin snr his age and his wifes age all tie up to previous census ).

However this throws up another conundrum:

Daniel Butlin jnr,it appears to me,doesn't appear on any census until 1891 when aged 23/24 when he appears with his mother and father ( Daniel Butlin snr )

Why would he not appear on the census of 1871 and 1881?

On the 1871 census in the same Butlin household there is a David Butlin with an abt birth year of 1868 the same as Daniel jnr ( who doesn't appear ) also on the 1881 census Daniel doesn't appear and neither does David ( in fact neither does any of the family its like they disapeared of the face of the earth! ).  However in 1891 and 1901 the family are back again with Daniel jnr in both but no David!

Could David be Daniel?

[Jon MW]

If you can look at the actual image of the census you might be able to answer that yourself.

Whoever transcribed it might have misread the name - and quite often when you look at it yourself you can see where they made the mistake.

[pokefast]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

[Jon MW]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

Fairly - but there's no reason to think this might not be an exception.

fwiw I have this hunch there's something I'm missing - but I've got a cold at the moment and can't quite focus properly.

[Claw75]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

I'm not sure on this, but is it not likely that in those days an umarried mother might have had to declare father as 'unknown' and therefore give the child her name?

[pokefast]

If you can look at the actual image of the census you might be able to answer that yourself.

Whoever transcribed it might have misread the name - and quite often when you look at it yourself you can see where they made the mistake.

Good work Mr Woodfield as ever top man  

In the original transcript of the 1871 it is ( to my eye ) quite clearly Daniel and not David.

Illiterate transcriber clearly!

So that ties another little bit up then and Elizabeth is the sister of Daniel so Elizabeth's daughter Mary Ann Argyle cannot possibly be my grandfathers mother ( please god don't tell me i'm gonna find incest  .

Just need to clear up this Ann Argyle/Butlin situation now and i'm almost laughing!

[pokefast]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

Fairly - but there's no reason to think this might not be an exception.

fwiw I have this hunch there's something I'm missing - but I've got a cold at the moment and can't quite focus properly.

You focusing quite well from where i'm standing Jon.

Everyone has been great,i can't thank people enough.

[Jon MW]

...

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

I'm not sure on this, but is it not likely that in those days an umarried mother might have had to declare father as 'unknown' and therefore give the child her name?

It varies sometimes it says Unknown sometimes they are living as a couple and a marriage follows shortly after - quite often this makes the registration exactly the same as if they were married when the baby was born.

Sometimes the father might acknowledge paternity, but they're not about to get married, and the baby can be registered with the mothers surname, but with the fathers surname as a last middle name.

And sometimes it does just have the fathers name registered but the baby has the mothers name because they're not married.

Varies a lot.

[ScottMGee]

Some tips from my own research.

Children (especially boys) oftern have the mother maiden name as their middle name.
People died a lot more often (if you know what I mean) and the surviving spouse generally remarried a lot quicker than we might do now.
Due to the above, step children are often on the census with the deceased fathers surname.
Children are sometimes found at relations houses on the census (grandparents normally)
Women tend to head back home when pregnant especially with the first child (I found a relative born in Ullesthorpe - Leicestershire, working in Mansfield - Notts, married in Masnfield, first child born back in Ullesthorpe.

[pokefast]

Some tips from my own research.

Children (especially boys) oftern have the mother maiden name as their middle name.
People died a lot more often (if you know what I mean) and the surviving spouse generally remarried a lot quicker than we might do now.
Due to the above, step children are often on the census with the deceased fathers surname.
Children are sometimes found at relations houses on the census (grandparents normally)
Women tend to head back home when pregnant especially with the first child (I found a relative born in Ullesthorpe - Leicestershire, working in Mansfield - Notts, married in Masnfield, first child born back in Ullesthorpe.

Thanks for this Scott.

People should stay in one place and write accurate information on their census forms imo lol

[pokefast]

Right after further searching i can't shed anymore light on the Ann Argyle/Daniel Butlin situation. I think its a reasonable shout to think that Ann Argyle is the daughter of Daniel Butlin but i need proof.

I'm going to order Ann Argyle's birth certificate so i can find her mothers name.

I'm also going to order her wedding certificate so i can 1. Match her to my great grandad and 2. so i can be sure Daniel Butlin is her father.

A couple of questions before i do.( Well ok maybe 4! )

1. Does the fact that Ann Argyle was according to birth records born Ann Argyle but married as Annie Argyle mean anything significant?

2. Is ordering the 2 certificates the correct thing to do?

3. Is there anything i've overlooked that i could do before ordering the certificates?

4. Some advice on certificates please as i don't have much knowledge of them:

I've only got the short version of my birth certificate but i'm assuming that if i order one it will hold the full information?

And is the information standard ie mothers and fathers full names if known?

On my marriage certificate there is my fathers name and occupation and my father in laws name and occupation. Is this information timeless ie will a marriage certificate from a marriage over 100 years ago still have the same info?

Sorry for all the questions but i want to get it clear in my mind as to my next step.