have i played this right?

[Cf]

I've enjoyed the constructive / instructive input on this hand. Thanks for posting the hand details Ironside. Just getting away from the raise size discussion for now, could anyone please give me an approximate set of ranges that, if i were in the big blind's shoes here, i should be either calling , or, 3 betting with?
 I understand the points made about not calling off my chips with ATC. With the stack sizes in this hand, surely the implied odds are good enough to correctly call with a very wide range of hands? was the call with 23 off a terrible call, or was it a good one, knowing that he can get away at a loss of 1.25 blinds if he doesn't hit the flop massively?
  Any suggestions / advice appreciated. Cheers
 

Calling with 32o is def a leak here. There aren't many flops you'll really like (22x, 33x, 23x, 45x). Your chances of hitting one of these is v low, low enough to mean you probably don't have implied odds unless you're v deep. And your implied odds may even be less if you're against an aggro player who's playing smallball and just trying to pick up the uncontested pots. eg, i've 2.5xd it with Q6o in late pos to pick up blinds/antes. You peel with 23o. Flop 223. You check, i cbet, you call/raise - i'm prob done in general, unless i have reason to believe you're playing back at me. This is obv a bit of a simplification as not all spots will be so clear cut, but also remember as BB you're always out of position here which is v important.

Basically in short: no you don't have implied odds

[Longy]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

Ouch. That sounds so bad.

Longy can you teach me some of your skillz as well please? I'll try to earn you a few bucks while you teach me the skillz that have taken you years to acquire but then I'll be off to win mad dimes on my own. No point sharing big bucks is there

I'll try not to give you any rubs though mate if that helps.

That is what I get for agreeing with Mantis I guess. There are deffo situations where varying raise size is optimal and despite all the com flaming that is the point Mantis was trying to make.

[George2Loose]

at work but will respond in full to posts above. there were reasons i left the longy stable after such a short period of time. i hope mark doesn't see things the way they have been conveyed it this thread

[GreekStein]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Hasn't done me any harm so far so WD me. Obv your style works in the £20 live games at Walsall. So WD you.

He sure beats the game.

Btw you're now forgiven for not coming to Luton mr Bedi. x

Talking of beating the game, just caught up with your staking thread.

Which one? The first one where I made around 100 buy ins and shipped all the stakers almost double their investment over a few months?

Or the one where I'm staked by Blatch, currently in little makeup and he's up over a few K over about 10 events I've played for him?

Or the thread I'm not currently updating as I went on a downswing and was doing better when not updating. The same one that I'm currently winning steadily on?

Just so you know

Meanwhile, feel free to post your name on full tilt, or a some results from Poker Tracker. Hendon mob will do, though they don't track the results from the £10 limited rebuys and £30f's I'm sure you crush over in Walsall.

[doubleup]

That is what I get for agreeing with Mantis I guess.

fu I agreed with Mantis first

[Longy]

at work but will respond in full to posts above. there were reasons i left the longy stable after such a short period of time. i hope mark doesn't see things the way they have been conveyed it this thread

There really is no hard feelings George. I understand why you left the staking arrangement and tbh it really is only me and you who need to know why.

If you want to go ahead and explain then that is cool with me either way. Just don't feel you need to do so cos of me or my feelings.

[BulldozerD]

back to the hand, this is 100% standard - nice stack btw

as for raise sizing, in general keeping these consistently small makes stealing more profitable as you lose less when 3bet etc. Obviously if you can manipulate sizing to your advantage in specific situations then you should. Generally at later stages of tournaments the worry is more about whether your open will get 3bet rather than if the blinds will peel off a flop. As people have said, if the BB consistently wants to peel small raises then it plays into our hands.

[EvilPie]

at work but will respond in full to posts above. there were reasons i left the longy stable after such a short period of time. i hope mark doesn't see things the way they have been conveyed it this thread

There really is no hard feelings George. I understand why you left the staking arrangement and tbh it really is only me and you who need to know why.

If you want to go ahead and explain then that is cool with me either way. Just don't feel you need to do so cos of me or my feelings.

I was only giving some gentle rubz George and it's only cus I'm jealous that you're winning at the moment

If I genuinely thought there was any poor form with the way the deal ended I would keep my nose well and truly out cus it's none of my business.

I also know that Longy doesn't mind cus he's a top fella and all round good egg.

[EvilPie]

back to the hand, this is 100% standard - nice stack btw

as for raise sizing, in general keeping these consistently small makes stealing more profitable as you lose less when 3bet etc. Obviously if you can manipulate sizing to your advantage in specific situations then you should. Generally at later stages of tournaments the worry is more about whether your open will get 3bet rather than if the blinds will peel off a flop. As people have said, if the BB consistently wants to peel small raises then it plays into our hands.

Small raises also mean that your c bet can be proportionately small keeping the costs down on your stealing mission.

Down side to this is that a decent player gets to 3 bet you with air on the cheap or do a flat call then raise your c bet.

Even worse is when he calls from the blinds and check raises one deep in to your blind stealing eye!!!

[Dubai]

Defending preflop from the bb to a 2.4x raise is underrated and underused.
Varying raise sizes to punish opponents tendancies is underrated and underused.

Welcome to 2012 poker. Can bump it in 2 years when people have caught on.

Now go back to 2010 with ur 3bet or fold pre nonsense.

[Kar l]

I liked 2004 when a 3 bet was Aces and 5 bets didn't exist

[MANTIS01]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

The person you sought poker advice from agrees with my contribution in this thread. Yet you enter the thread just to flame me for making that contribution. Anybody not blinded by clique membership will see the irony very clearly.

If you read both our contributions to this poker discussion you will see quite clearly who the spanner is. My posts were genuine and sought to provoke debate about poker and utilse the board for it's intended purpose. Your posts were designed purely to flame. This only spoils the board for members who want to use it for their own learning tool just like you used Longy. Funny cos he was staking you for small buy-ins a few weeks ago and suddenly you seem to be scoffing at people who play those kind of stakes or locally at their casino. That's prob about 95% of Blondes. You have come across as a cheeky kid in this thread, like a bit of fortune has gone straight to your head, luck comes and goes buddy but class is a timeless commodity, and it's a quality you seem to lack.

[GreekStein]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

The person you sought poker advice from agrees with my contribution in this thread. Yet you enter the thread just to flame me for making that contribution. Anybody not blinded by clique membership will see the irony very clearly.

If you read both our contributions to this poker discussion you will see quite clearly who the spanner is. My posts were genuine and sought to provoke debate about poker and utilse the board for it's intended purpose. Your posts were designed purely to flame. This only spoils the board for members who want to use it for their own learning tool just like you used Longy. Funny cos he was staking you for small buy-ins a few weeks ago and suddenly you seem to be scoffing at people who play those kind of stakes or locally at their casino. That's prob about 95% of Blondes. You have come across as a cheeky kid in this thread, like a bit of fortune has gone straight to your head, luck comes and goes buddy but class is a timeless commodity, and it's a quality you seem to lack.

[  ] You have class.

[  ] You know Bedi.

[EvilPie]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

The person you sought poker advice from agrees with my contribution in this thread. Yet you enter the thread just to flame me for making that contribution. Anybody not blinded by clique membership will see the irony very clearly.

If you read both our contributions to this poker discussion you will see quite clearly who the spanner is. My posts were genuine and sought to provoke debate about poker and utilse the board for it's intended purpose. Your posts were designed purely to flame. This only spoils the board for members who want to use it for their own learning tool just like you used Longy. Funny cos he was staking you for small buy-ins a few weeks ago and suddenly you seem to be scoffing at people who play those kind of stakes or locally at their casino. That's prob about 95% of Blondes. You have come across as a cheeky kid in this thread, like a bit of fortune has gone straight to your head, luck comes and goes buddy but class is a timeless commodity, and it's a quality you seem to lack.

you should hear him laugh.....

[nirvana]

There does seem to be a bit of religious orthodoxy about a single style of play - I like Dubai's and Alex's take on things quite a bit.

Also, I'm sure Mantis doesn't need me to say anything on his behalf but..... he posts an opinion, I'm sure he doesn't mind being challenged but why does it have to be childish and personal ? People could opt to climb out from up their own and each others butts for a second, grow up and disagree like adults