Discussions about: Staking - Betfair Football Trading

[Palawan]

No I'm not, but after 146 pages it seems too many people still can't see the wood for the trees.  

Yes, obtaining money by deception is a crime but you cannot simply apply that phrase to this event or any other simply because you want to because you feel it should be.  Bottom line is he said he would double your money if you gave it to him to gamble with and you knew what gambling meant - it means you might win, you might lose.  He was given money to gamble with and he did, had the results worked out you'd all be rubbing your hands together pocketing the cash, but he lost it.

Turnover?  Did he bet more than he was given, ie more than 80k?  Looks like it.  He said he used some of his money as well as he was using his exchange accounts.  Were records kept detailing exactly what was and what wasn't a club bet?  Doesn't look like it, sloppy management and sloppy gambling, likely impossible to seperate without full access to all accounts and his full co-operation, meaning almost impossible to prove beyond doubt anything other than he gambled, badly.

Perhaps there will be an official police statement soon, perhaps there will be an official response from betfair soon but anyone expecting these, criminal charges and betfair to refund commission as it looks like a group of innocents (though not too innocent to want to make someone else poorer through gambling) got 'grimmed' through their own lack of care, are expecting too much.

Regarding the WSOP stake - what was that exactly for? - you were staking him funds to gamble for you to make money for you, no less no more, he already had your explicit agreement to do this for you as he saw fit as the manager of the money you had already given him, that he chose to mix 'funds' might not be what you intended but not against the law.  Wake up and smell the coffee, lock the thread and only allow mods to post up fluffy answers that the gang will find empathetic, whether they're realistic or not.

You can still make life uncomfortable for him and I expect many are, I would too.

[d.c.]

No I'm not, but after 146 pages it seems too many people still can't see the wood for the trees.  

Yes, obtaining money by deception is a crime but you cannot simply apply that phrase to this event or any other simply because you want to because you feel it should be.  Bottom line is he said he would double your money if you gave it to him to gamble with and you knew what gambling meant - it means you might win, you might lose.  He was given money to gamble with and he did, had the results worked out you'd all be rubbing your hands together pocketing the cash, but he lost it.

Turnover?  Did he bet more than he was given, ie more than 80k?  Looks like it.  He said he used some of his money as well as he was using his exchange accounts.  Were records kept detailing exactly what was and what wasn't a club bet?  Doesn't look like it, sloppy management and sloppy gambling, likely impossible to seperate without full access to all accounts and his full co-operation, meaning almost impossible to prove beyond doubt anything other than he gambled, badly.

Perhaps there will be an official police statement soon, perhaps there will be an official response from betfair soon but anyone expecting these, criminal charges and betfair to refund commission as it looks like a group of innocents (though not too innocent to want to make someone else poorer through gambling) got 'grimmed' through their own lack of care, are expecting too much.

Regarding the WSOP stake - what was that exactly for? - you were staking him funds to gamble for you to make money for you, no less no more, he already had your explicit agreement to do this for you as he saw fit as the manager of the money you had already given him, that he chose to mix 'funds' might not be what you intended but not against the law.  Wake up and smell the coffee, lock the thread and only allow mods to post up fluffy answers that the gang will find empathetic, whether they're realistic or not.

You can still make life uncomfortable for him and I expect many are, I would too.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/fraud_act/

have a read of that specifically the bit about fraud by false representation and then come back and say there may not be a case to answer.

[ThudNBlunder]

As Palawan is making the legal argument for the defence just a few points;
There are several points here, both civil and criminal.

As regards to the  civil 'contract' it doesn't have to be written down, there just needs to be 3 elements; offer, acceptance, consideration. A service was offered, accepted and paid for the second money changed hands. If the money is NOT used in the manner offered it's a breach of the contract; it's clear in this case that the contract was breached literally from the first 'trade'.

Where the criminal charges come in is where money was accepted in full knowledge that it wouldn't be used for the purpose stated in the original offer. That is fraud and while there are possible legal arguments about the early investors there can be no argument about any acceptance of monies later in the scheme- there was NO intent to use the money as stated. There is also the separate matter of theft- the 'dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.' When he mis-declared the win as a loss that is theft pure and simple. Every mis-declared and omitted result is an act of theft. The transfers between accounts are also certainly theft.

Just to say I'm not a lawyer so there may be some holes in this but I did just run this past a friend who's a barrister (I helped him revise his law degree!!) and he agrees with these points.

[brado]

Stubbled on this thread a few days ago after looking at pictures of beautiful tennis players on another thread and have to say as an outsider find it amazingly engrossing. I feel extremly sorry for his close friends who invested, less sorry for those who didn't know him and gave him money on something that looked too good to be true (A life lesson there).

NoflopsHomers diagnosis is very well presented. This whole story would make a great book someday.

Best wishes to those who know Neil Blatchly and have lost a friend, I hope it doesn't effect them long term too much and also if Neil is a degenerate gambler and not a conman then best wishes to him in overcoming what is a sad illness.

[Palawan]

There isn't, not may not be, a case to answer under criminal law.  Most solicitors practices would bite the gangs arms off to take this up in a civil law court, though they will feed them with similar quotes about crime and predictions of success against someone who is allegedly broke whilst at the same time racking up thousands of pounds in fees for what will ultimately be a painful exercise to cause him some grief in defending the case.

The deal was the gang would give him money to gamble and he did just that, gambling does not guarantee success otherwise I'd be prosecuting Thommo for his tips under the fraud act.  Law can be ambiguous but it's not designed to be, you can wrap many crimes and phrases around this generally, but the bottom line is that people willingly gave him money to gamble in the hope he would make them richer by making others poorer.  The gang lost not because generally gambling results in losing but in this case because they mistakenly gave it to an unreliable muppet to gamble with.

And I'm not making a case for the defence, just pointing out if he does end up with a case to defend it will be in a civil law court, not criminal.

[TightEnd]

ok the Mods team is now locking this thread


Behind the scenes things are moving on apace but none of that can be posted on the forum at the moment. I am sure you will understand that between authorities, investors, Blatch and his family and others there is a lot to sort out. blonde Poker mods and shareholders are helping whenever requested to do, notably by the police.

Once matters resolve and the issues play out, we'll post to tell everyone. This of course may take some time.

However for the time being all we have is conjecture, some of which is damaging (notably non-professional legal views) because it is in some cases misguided but difficult to counter at a time when many interested parties cannot say much in public


Thank you for your understanding, more when we have it

[GreekStein]

I received a payment for the full amount owed to me on Friday and it cleared into my bank today. Karl Mahrenholz the same.

I've also spoken with Neil's family who are raising the money to pay everyone back in full and expect this to be completed within around 30 days.

If anyone is an investor and does not know what's going on or how to go about getting their money back please send me a pm and I'll help.

Maybe I'm an idiot for saying so, but if this is the case as it would seem very likely so, then I hope Neil can eventually turn his life around.

[TightEnd]

Once matters resolve and the issues play out, we'll post to tell everyone.

There is fresh news, as Cos says in the post above, therefore the thread has been unlocked

Will probably leave it open a short time for comments, and then lock again...re-opening when there is more to say


Thanks for your co-operation in keeping the debate sensible....

[sweet potata!]

I received a payment for the full amount owed to me on Friday and it cleared into my bank today. Karl Mahrenholz the same.

I've also spoken with Neil's family who are raising the money to pay everyone back in full and expect this to be completed within around 30 days.

If anyone is an investor and does not know what's going on or how to go about getting their money back please send me a pm and I'll help.

Maybe I'm an idiot for saying so, but if this is the case as it would seem very likely so, then I hope Neil can eventually turn his life around.

Whats the system for paying back? Big investors first, people he knew etc....

[action man]

run better

[kinboshi]

I received a payment for the full amount owed to me on Friday and it cleared into my bank today. Karl Mahrenholz the same.

I've also spoken with Neil's family who are raising the money to pay everyone back in full and expect this to be completed within around 30 days.

If anyone is an investor and does not know what's going on or how to go about getting their money back please send me a pm and I'll help.

Maybe I'm an idiot for saying so, but if this is the case as it would seem very likely so, then I hope Neil can eventually turn his life around.

Whats the system for paying back? Big investors first, people he knew etc....

They've said that people will be paid back in the order they responded to his email/PM/Facebook message.

[EvilPie]

run better

Shout louder

[EvilPie]

EvilPie, crown and 7 Guests are viewing this topic

Thread no longer delivers now he's paying back.

[StuartHopkin]

EvilPie, crown and 7 Guests are viewing this topic

Thread no longer delivers now he's paying back.

How could it

Worst grim ever

FACT

[celtic]

Will be busy soon enough IMO