5 handed re-raise at Bingo time

[psustudent]

lulz um ok

tho you should prolly read my post again.

either way your post reminds me of...



lulz guessing for your sake your post was a level

also either way prolly for you it's...



just lulz

one of the reasons its not preferred to post in public strategy forums sometimes. gotta deal with random spazzouts like that. there should be some ban/restrictions after someone makes a post like that. lol fortunately, i've found that post is mostly an exception to the majority of posts on the strat forum here so thats good so far.

I might post on a couple forums to get other people's perspective for your sake or you should try doing that. lol im not even gonna bother expanding on my strat. post above. was pretty simplistic i thought. if a winning player wants to clarify it to him go for it but i wouldnt blame them if they didnt. if op or a respected winning player has a qn./need a clarification feel free to ask and will be glad to clarify.

lol tho oh well.

[EvilPie]

lulz um ok

tho you should prolly read my post again.

either way your post reminds me of...



lulz guessing for your sake your post was a level

also either way prolly for you it's...



just lulz

one of the reasons its not preferred to post in public strategy forums sometimes. gotta deal with random spazzouts like that. there should be some ban/restrictions after someone makes a post like that. lol fortunately, i've found that post is mostly an exception to the majority of posts on the strat forum here so thats good so far.

I might post on a couple forums to get other people's perspective for your sake or you should try doing that. lol im not even gonna bother expanding on my strat. post above. was pretty simplistic i thought. if a winning player wants to clarify it to him go for it but i wouldnt blame them if they didnt. if op or a respected winning player has a qn./need a clarification feel free to ask and will be glad to clarify.

lol tho oh well.

Oh my God!!!

It's so close!!!!!

You've almost got me!!!!

Keep digging Rooks. You'll break me soon I promise.

[psustudent]

chill I am not rooks neither do I know anyone with that name. PSU stands for Penn State Uni. obv. in case you didn't know.

but to the topic, seriously you should reread that strat. post and maybe the points will get across this time around.  if not oh well.

or really try posting that on any other good strat. forums and read similar points told to you from diff. ppl. before spazzing out and typing wtfs like 5 times in a sentence and offering incorrect advice.

all I'll point to you is like I said in my earlier post, again, look at stack sizes and read again what I explained. if you cant get it from there, guess I cant help you as it doesn't seem you're interested in improving as much as typing wtfs a bunch of time.

guess as you dont understand my strat. posts, I won't post in your threads.

As for that strat. post of mine, like I said earlier, if OP/other respected posters have a qn. feel free to ask.

Either way, I dont have time for this offtopic exchange in a strat. forum. I'm here strictly to read what other good players post and contribute positively in the strat. forums myself.

[Longy]

With what appears to be 11bbs effective and  in the cutoff, doing anything but shipping it all in pre is a big mistake imo.

[buzzharvey22]

wtf, time of the month??

yer ship pre in the cutoff for me, are there ante's in the game? even if not i still think its a ship as live players calling ranges are usually a lot tighter, if we do get called we have a pretty hand, oh and with the extra 500 up top were going ftw!!!

[psustudent]

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

[EvilPie]

chill I am not rooks neither do I know anyone with that name. PSU stands for Penn State Uni. obv. in case you didn't know.

but to the topic, seriously you should reread that strat. post and maybe the points will get across this time around.  if not oh well.

or really try posting that on any other good strat. forums and read similar points told to you from diff. ppl. before spazzing out and typing wtfs like 5 times in a sentence and offering incorrect advice.

all I'll point to you is like I said in my earlier post, again, look at stack sizes and read again what I explained. if you cant get it from there, guess I cant help you as it doesn't seem you're interested in improving as much as typing wtfs a bunch of time.

guess as you dont understand my strat. posts, I won't post in your threads.

As for that strat. post of mine, like I said earlier, if OP/other respected posters have a qn. feel free to ask.

Either way, I dont have time for this offtopic exchange in a strat. forum. I'm here strictly to read what other good players post and contribute positively in the strat. forums myself.

Sorry I thought you were studying power supply units. My bad.

I've reread the strat and I still believe it to be extremely flawed and exploitable. 5 handed with 5% of the total tournament chips in the middle just in blinds I can't see how any move other than shove or fold is acceptable. If we raise to 34k there is now 10% of the entire tournament's chips just sat there in the middle and we are going to let someone else take them by shoving? Doesn't seem like a bright idea to me.

There were 2 WTFs in 7 paragraphs. You slightly over exaggerated that one.

I would genuinely be interested to see what other strat forums have to say about this hand. I'm not a member on any others so maybe you could post it on one and then provide a link once a few posters have had their say.

I'm very keen on improving my game which is why I frequent this board. I also understand your strat so please post on threads. It just happens that despite understanding it I strongly disagree with your strat on this particular hand. This doesn't mean I wont agree with something else you have to add.

[SuuPRlim]

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

  - shove pre /thread pretty much

in this case above I think it boils down in the main aspect to ICM im not a tourney/sng player for the most part, so ICM isn't something I feel comfortable writing anything positive about here, but also I spose it depends hevily on the villain as well. In the stated example that bet size looks very much like he is rasing to fold to you and snap the shorty's off, in which case shoving might not be terrible, if you knew the villain you'd have a good idea of his opening ranges and roughly wat % he is folding and that might make a shove possible, although id imagine ICM would make this a FOLD FOLD FOLD.

I cant see any point to raise folding, I think that is by far the worst option, and  leaves you open to being exploited. I don't think there will be many spots like this where we could consider a raise fold.

[EvilPie]

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

Both situations depend greatly on our opponent. If I think he's not the sort to commit this much to a pot and fold I'd just shove.

If I think oppo may fold I might just min raise to get to get him to spew a few more chips in my direction. If I think he may fold though I would also ship here with any 2 cards and exploit his weakness while I still have enough chips to do so.

5 handed I'm ahead of any realistic range you can come up with so I'm happy getting it in here if that's in any way possible. I just don't want to shove if I think he's going to pass all those hands out there that I crush.

In a satellite I just shove it. No point messing about but I still think I'm ahead of any range and I also have FE against 60/40 type hands such as Q10 etc. In the tournament I want to get the money in against worse hands but in a sat I don't mind getting worse hands to fold. Obviously this is again very opponent specific but with these chips we wouldn't be locked and need to do something at some stage to ensure our prize. If we fold here we might as well just quit.

[SuuPRlim]

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

Both situations depend greatly on our opponent. If I think he's not the sort to commit this much to a pot and fold I'd just shove.

If I think oppo may fold I might just min raise to get to get him to spew a few more chips in my direction. If I think he may fold though I would also ship here with any 2 cards and exploit his weakness while I still have enough chips to do so.

5 handed I'm ahead of any realistic range you can come up with so I'm happy getting it in here if that's in any way possible. I just don't want to shove if I think he's going to pass all those hands out there that I crush.

In a satellite I just shove it. No point messing about but I still think I'm ahead of any range and I also have FE against 60/40 type hands such as Q10 etc. In the tournament I want to get the money in against worse hands but in a sat I don't mind getting worse hands to fold. Obviously this is again very opponent specific but with these chips we wouldn't be locked and need to do something at some stage to ensure our prize. If we fold here we might as well just quit.

I really want to shove and I probs would in real time lol - but IM SURE an ICM genius is gonna come along and say its a fold, so I was trying to be right for once! queue someone with ICM powers to settle this....

[Royal Flush]

PSU's 'strat.' makes a bit more sense now i realise he is assuming there are 2 prizes, i did not make such an assumption.

I have assumed we are already ITM which looks the case and 2nd prize has been show to illustrate how top heavy the tournament is.

As such he is wrong purely because he is evaluating the wrong hand.

[SuuPRlim]

I might post on a couple forums to get other people's perspective for your sake or you should try doing that. lol im not even gonna bother expanding on my strat. post above. was pretty simplistic i thought. if a winning player wants to clarify it to him go for it but i wouldnt blame them if they didnt. if op or a respected winning player has a qn./need a clarification feel free to ask and will be glad to clarify.

I dont really like use of the term "winning player" here - makes it sound like a) EvilPie isnt, b) You are and c) only the "group" of winning players are allowed to participate.
I dont know u or EvilPie IRL, you both might be playing nosebleeds, its just bad for the board stuff like this imo

[OverTheBorder]

Guessing my truly awful stack estimates etc has confused opinions (apologies), I fold to a pre ship, JQ is pretty much bang at the bottom of my range, just canvasing opinion, I dont play money shove fests and always struggle when it gets silly to strike a balance between shoving too early or blinding out! so insight is appreciated!  Player had played with me all night and not seen one bluff shown, so doubt he had read, although, I was very active expoiting my stack on the final table as a lot of players seemed keen to ladder! standard of play highlighted by an early position limp with  for 35% of stack...hmmmmmmm

Also as a small overtone we were 30 minutes from an enforced chip count to decide positions! which is why cute playing AJ seemed even odder to me!  especially remembering that first was 100% greater prize than second!

[psustudent]

ha atleast I dont see a bunch of wtfs and "my heads gonna asplode" type of posts so thats a good sign.

basically what I wrote previously was either not read entirely and/or not interpreted correctly and taken out of context.

I clearly said 'I do believe villain played it incorrectly. If you have AJ in villain's spot, do not minraise. Depending on payouts/game dynamics, shove or fold.'

1. So I was arguing the villain with AJ did play it bad and anyone arguing minraising with AJ "to get action from worse hands/get opponent to spew or he got you to get your money in with a worse hand" is making a technically flawed argument, esp. given stack sizes. So I disagree with anyone that is arguing minraising with AJ is a good line and winning mtters/sngers will tell you its a terrible play and virtually no set of circumstances justify minraise with AJ as a +EV play.

2. Also, anyone arguing that raise/folding QJ pre is not an option is either taking my argument out of context or is not familiar with some specific mtt/sng dynamics. I clearly said depending on payouts/game dynamics. Say if the opponent with AJ is a nit playing to cash, then you can raise QJ and fold if he shoves as you know when he does take a stand he will have you crushed. Say if payout structure is 10k each for 1st and 2nd only, then you can raise QJ and fold as you're opponent will have to fold AJ there and if he shoves, you can easily fold. So as much as I had hoped my implying all this would be understood by using a phrase like "depending payouts/game dynamics" I guess sometimes you just have to expand on it.

3. Also, anyone arguing folding AJ pre is not an option and is equivalent to 'might as well quit if AJ is folded pre' is also offering incorrect advice and I obv. disagree with that as well. My point is, as I clearly said, depending on payout structures/game dynamics, shove or fold AJ pre. So I'm arguing there will be times given an entirely different payout structure and against a particular set of opponents, you will have to fold AJ pre and doing anything else will be hugely -EV. Any satty/icm expert will tell you there are times when folding AA pre is correct and/ AJ is not even close. Again, I clearly said, 'depending on payouts, raise or fold AJ pre' so if you ignore half of the sentence and argue "you can never fold AJ pre" then basically your argument is invalid as you are taking my point out of context. So anyone saying "he is wrong cus he is evaluating a diff. hand" well I'm not wrong cus I'm evaluating a diff. hand, I'm actually changing up the parameters like payouts and player images to illustrate another point and taking OP's spot a step further.

I guess as I expand on this some of it will be clear thats why I said reread the post to see what I was referring to (ie diff. set of parameters regarding payouts/table dynamics).

4. Thing is I don't expect for everyone to interpret everything I say in a sentence entirely the way I intended it without me having to expand/clarify that's why people write books, some of these concepts you can write pages on and no one has time for that here. I guess I was assuming by using generalized phrases like 'depending on payouts/game dynamics' people will get what I'm implying and clearly not everyone did.

5. I didn't say winning player to insinuate the other poster isnt. Just from my experience, a lot of respected regs don't go "wtf, my heads exploding, i can rip more into this post" etc but instead ask constructive qns. if they arent clear on something. The kind of debate I prefer to engage in is the civil, constructive one. That's why I offered to not post in his other threads if our posting styles don't gel well as I would not like to contribute to disruption on this forum.

So basically some of this confusion resulted from misinterpretation and some of it I believe through incorrect fundamental understanding of concepts/correct plays. Hopefully some of that is clarified. I'm done with this hand and moving on to next one as its a simple spot to me and there is nothing more I can expand on here.

I would add it was an interesting discussion. As I get used to posting in strategy forums, it did help me realize some stuff like how not to phrase strategy opinions.  I am definitely not trying to create any confusion. Cheers.

[EvilPie]

WTF!?!?!?!?