The worst ruling I have ever seen and it's me who has to be the victim

[dik9]

You are absolutely correct Claw, Rabbit Hunting is strictly forbidden, this will also be on the notice. TY

[outragous76]

First of all - WP dtd, an excellent response

I dont want to suggest a specific ruling, as I am sure that you guys will have more involvement and expereince with regard to situations than most.

However I dont think that the rule needs to be fixed for DIFFERENT scenarios. I think that you should make a very clear distcintion between checking and betting.

A check is frequently silent and can be very swift to get through 3 players (lets say level 1 in an 8 way limped pot). The person wanting to take action (as in this hand) should NOT be penalised.

However, if there has been a bet and 3 people CALL (or whatever) then I would happily accept a different ruling in this scenario. The dealer will at least have spoken at this point (in all likelihood) to have at least alerted the player to the actions.

For me if players have checked out of turn - the original player should have all options open

If he is facing bets - I am very uncomfortable with his hand being dead (esp if only say 2 players have acted quickly as they are the only ones left in). but i do see the player can gain an advantage. - I probably prefer no aggresive action at this point.

I think another point to consider when making the ruling  (assuming this is all post flop discussion) is what happens if the turn gets dealt (although the player would have to be really unaware to not have seen the dealer tap the table) - just throwing it out there as I have seen it happen

[dik9]

Thank you for your opinion Guy, duly noted.

The action of the dealer dealing the turn is construed as one action.

[RED-DOG]

For the sake of balance, I just want to say that in my opinion, the vast majority of the dealers at DTD are excellent.

[Cf]

Further to the meeting yesterday, it has been agreed by all that the rule we use at the moment does not serve it's purpose very well. We all agreed that the rule needs changing in line with major cardrooms across the world. This will be done ASAP!

At the moment RR is

12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.

However something does not sit comfortable with a few of us regarding this rule, and it would be great if we can have some feedback on this:
If a player is facing a bet and there are 3 or more actions after him/her, and then the player calls "time" he has too much information to be considered fair, even if his action is made passive he still may be priced in. The fact that he hasn't noticed 3 people put money into a pot (as this will never be instant) it is still the players responsibility to follow the action

Caro and Cookes rule are more comprehensive and should eliminate a possible stroke:

8.02. ACTING PROMPTLY.
A player is entitled to a reasonable time to think about his action, but should in no other way slow the game down. If a player wishes to take time to act he must stop the action by calling “Time.” Failure to stop the action before there has been substantial action behind a player may cause the player to lose his right to act. If the player is facing a bet when he has lost the right to act he shall be deemed to have folded, and his hand is dead. If he is not facing a bet when he has lost the right to act he will be deemed to have checked. A player does not forfeit his right to act if any player in front of him has not yet acted, so that the failure of another to act properly in turn shall not cause another player to lose his right of action, even if there is substantial action behind the second player who has not yet acted. All action made behind a player who has not acted shall be binding, so long as the action by the delaying player or any other intervening player does not change the action which the person acting behind him is facing.

Please discuss

Can we apologize to Sack it off for being at the end of the original ruling and thank him for bringing this to light. FWIW every TD would have given the same ruling as that was our rule at the time and would have been consistent, but we all realize that our rule was not being used for the intention that it was made. Thank You.

Pretty much what I said. The second rule you quoted seems to me to be the same, just with added clarification.

Two questions if you could answer them please..

1) What ruleset does DTD follow other than TDA? I'm presuming it's RRs?

2) If it is RRs I think there's an argument to be made that the ruling in the OP was NOT correct. It clearly includes the line "may lose the right to act". I would argue that perhaps RRs could use some clarification to their rule, but that the actual rule itself isn't incorrect - merely that your application of it was incorrect. Thoughts? (No biggie btw, even DTD are allowed mistakes, but it sits a bit uncomfortable with me that you all thought the original ruling was correct).

[rex008]

Another point on the Agenda was the standard of dealing including but not exclusive Girgy's legitimate complaint of dealers looking at mucked cards. I had pm'd Girgy regarding this and unfortunately he didn't remember the dealer in question.

Some notices will be in the staffroom very shortly (they may be there now), once everyone has read them we will be going down the disciplinary route if dealers do not abide by them. I hope this will lead to a better and consistent standard of dealing by all.

Many Thanks for raising the point, keep them coming if needed.

As it's been raised....

I came up a few months ago to play one of the super 50 events.  I took down a pot on the turn with two pair and the guy I was in the pot with folded top pair, top kicker face up.  Totally unprompted, the dealer continued to deal out the river 'just to see'.  I noticed after reading the DTD rules prompted by this thread that rabbit hunting is forbidden.  I've never seen it happen before or since, but don't visit very often.  None of the other players at the table batted an eyelid though, which made me suspect it wasn't that unusual an occurrence, but had the dealer asked if anyone minded i would have objected.

And well played for reconsidering the rule that prompted this thread

FWIW - I'm at DTD a fair bit (might even be going tonight) and I've NEVER seen this happen. I've seen a dealer being asked to rabbit hunt and refusing, as per the rules. Possibly it was a temp dealer? You can always tell a "proper" DTD dealer from a temp one, I find - the DTD trained ones are very consistent. I'm sure any temp dealers are encouraged to read the house rules, but maybe this could be double checked?

DTD is the proper nuts. Yes, maybe the ruling was an unfortunate one, but it was by the rules at the time, and engaging with the players like this is a credit to them, IMHO.

[buzzharvey22]

all dealers at DTD should be trained to deal (and look like) Harvey

[dik9]

1) What ruleset does DTD follow other than TDA? I'm presuming it's RRs?

It has only been the last 2 version's that RR has tried to incorporate the TDA rules or at least compliment them. The TDA are the rules we use, but you will notice that these leave many grey areas as it doesn't go into too much detail.

When we first opened the managers and supervisors tried to go through every rule in different situations (different versions) and discuss the best way to handle each rule. We all know that there are grey areas with most rules as each situation is different, but we use TDA as guidelines. If any TD anywhere feels that a particular situation which is stated in any set of rules is unfair, the TD can overule any rule in the interest of the game. I admit it that this could have been implemented in this case. We may have missed some situations out in this period but there are a lot of scenarios to go by, I remember when we covered this rule, and looking back we only covered "when facing action".

As Roberts Rules contradicted some of the TDA rules when we first opened we used TDA and filled in the gaps with House Rules that we all agreed on.

I am not 100% but if you go back a couple of versions I believe you will find that RR goes with "if substantial action has passed a player who has not yet acted, his hand will be declared dead"

Rather than referring to 2 sets of rules, I have asked Simon if I can draft one set of comprehensive rules that actually include ALL the TDA rules and most probably RR. This will not be intended to be "another set" just a fully comprehensive set of DTD rules that can be referred to. This may take some time and will have to be approved by all TD's at DTD.

What you must understand is that in the UK pre 2002 all casino's had nothing but "House Rules" From Luton Southwards, when it came to rules people used The Vic's, and from Northampton Northwards every casino based it's Rules on The Rainbow's. Some of the rules are actually laughable now, but some "old skool" smaller cardrooms still use these old ones, company's bought each other out and rules were distorted*. When the internet kicked in TD's realized how wrong they had got it, the majority adapted and changed but even then the American Rules could not be adapted fully because they contradicted the Gaming Guidelines for poker. It doesn't help that even America hasn't got standard Rules, the closest thing to standard is the TDA.

* this is probably the main reason why all mainstream UK cardrooms do not have the same rules.

Gotta go to work lol

[poonjoe]

1. The Supervisor's decision is final.

[rex008]

all dealers at DTD should be trained to deal (and look like) Harvey

Sorry, couldn't resist. He is a superb dealer. Unless Harvey isn't who I'm thinking of, in which case I've made a huge fool of myself .

[doubleup]

Would be nice to give Sack it Off a free entry to the next £300 tournament as way of apology.

Unfortunately that was our rule at the time Keith. Whether it be right or wrong.

you've sorted it now going forward, but "losing the right to act" and "hand declared dead" are not the same thing and the writer of the rule deliberately used one and not the other.  He must therefore have intended that there would be scenarios where a hand would not be declared dead (clarified in your post).

[Cf]

1) What ruleset does DTD follow other than TDA? I'm presuming it's RRs?

It has only been the last 2 version's that RR has tried to incorporate the TDA rules or at least compliment them. The TDA are the rules we use, but you will notice that these leave many grey areas as it doesn't go into too much detail.

When we first opened the managers and supervisors tried to go through every rule in different situations (different versions) and discuss the best way to handle each rule. We all know that there are grey areas with most rules as each situation is different, but we use TDA as guidelines. If any TD anywhere feels that a particular situation which is stated in any set of rules is unfair, the TD can overule any rule in the interest of the game. I admit it that this could have been implemented in this case. We may have missed some situations out in this period but there are a lot of scenarios to go by, I remember when we covered this rule, and looking back we only covered "when facing action".

As Roberts Rules contradicted some of the TDA rules when we first opened we used TDA and filled in the gaps with House Rules that we all agreed on.

I am not 100% but if you go back a couple of versions I believe you will find that RR goes with "if substantial action has passed a player who has not yet acted, his hand will be declared dead"

Rather than referring to 2 sets of rules, I have asked Simon if I can draft one set of comprehensive rules that actually include ALL the TDA rules and most probably RR. This will not be intended to be "another set" just a fully comprehensive set of DTD rules that can be referred to. This may take some time and will have to be approved by all TD's at DTD.

What you must understand is that in the UK pre 2002 all casino's had nothing but "House Rules" From Luton Southwards, when it came to rules people used The Vic's, and from Northampton Northwards every casino based it's Rules on The Rainbow's. Some of the rules are actually laughable now, but some "old skool" smaller cardrooms still use these old ones, company's bought each other out and rules were distorted*. When the internet kicked in TD's realized how wrong they had got it, the majority adapted and changed but even then the American Rules could not be adapted fully because they contradicted the Gaming Guidelines for poker. It doesn't help that even America hasn't got standard Rules, the closest thing to standard is the TDA.

* this is probably the main reason why all mainstream UK cardrooms do not have the same rules.

Gotta go to work lol

Cheers for the clarification

[George2Loose]

all dealers at DTD should be trained to deal (and look like) Harvey

No ty!

[Girgy85]

all dealers at DTD should be trained to deal (and look like) Harvey

No ty!

^^THIS^^

Possibly the worst dealer in there!

[tikay]

all dealers at DTD should be trained to deal (and look like) Harvey

No ty!

^^THIS^^

Possibly the worst dealer in there!

What did Harvey say when you told him that?

FWIW, I'd happily sit at Harvey's Table all day & all night, he's brilliant, & keeps the game moving super fast. And he does subtle humour, which maybe you struggle with.