a disgrace

[sledge13]

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/RAF-man-turned-away-by.6622575.jp

[leethefish]

i started this thread  for reasons i think everyone is clear
the poppy is to show we care ......we care for every service man and woman who has lost there life fighting for this country,
this country that the haters/scum  live and work .
if they feel the need to break the two minute silence with hate chants then they don't deserve to be in this country.
this is not to do with there war ...Afghanistan or Iraq but in every conflict since 1918.
so free speech ...no freedom of speech possibly but to disrupt something that is so important to do with the country that they live in work in claim benefits from draw a pension and use the nhs is disgusting to the point i feel physically sick!
i did not read all the posts last night so i don't know what was written after i logged off
but my motivation is not race or religion ...but of a proud ex serviceman that knows how it feels to lose friends/loved ones and colleagues during conflict.
and a simple poppy is a way to remeber them
lest we forget.

[MANTIS01]

While I don't support the Muslim protestors in how they acted, the poppy-facism I've encountered here & in the press in general over the last few years tilts me up.

Best thing to do when you see a spark is extinguish it. Put out the spark quickly and it can't develop into a fire. You could put out this fire quite quickly with some rubber bullets and tear gas.

Aye - point out where that's been successful in history.....

The mentality that we should protect free speech and freedom of expression at all costs because that's what our soldiers died fighting for tilts me badly. If you lined up every poor kid who lost his life in WWII every one of them would say they were fighting for Britain, their country, their home. They wouldn't give you that liberal political bollox as the reason they sacrificed their life. They died because the Germans were dropping bombs on their own families in their own homes and every one of them would be prepared to die protecting their own backyard from foreign invasion. Today every one of us would do the same. If a German soldier came down my road thinking he was somehow in charge of me I would happily shoot him in the leg and tell him to GTFO. That is the reality of why those guys died. Taking just one value from British culture and suggesting that is the reason they died is so wrong and disrespectful. Britain is a multi-cultural country and a world leader in promoting the virtue of free speech. We have nothing to prove on that score. So we don't need to take it to the extreme and keep inviting people to slap us in the face just to prove how tolerant we are. Spitting on the graves of those who died is where the line of free speech is drawn imo just like the denial of the holocaust. Free speech 99.9% of the time is a figure I can live with.

REALLY? I think a lot would say it was because they were conscripted & they were fighting because they were scared they'd be killed.

I love how other people's jingoistic bullshit is worthy of rubber bullets but good old Blighty's is now mandatory in a country with alleged freedom.

How dare they oppose the poppy - you must be really angry against these guys then:

Soldiers say remember the futility of war on poppy day
Letter to The Independent, 03 November 2010

The Poppy Appeal is once again subverting Armistice Day. A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored.

The public are being urged to wear a poppy in support of "Our Heroes". There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle. There is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about fighting in an unnecessary conflict.

Remembrance should be marked with the sentiment "Never again".
Ben Griffin Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Ben Hayden Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Terry Wood Northern Ireland, Falklands; Ken Lukowiak Northern Ireland, Falklands; Neil Polley Falklands; Steve Pratt Dhofar, Northern Ireland.

No doubt those soldiers were scared, but to overcome their immense fear and go forward into battle anyway shows tremendous courage imo. I salute every one of them. I think saying they fought because they were forced to diminshes their sacrifice. The poppy is a symbol of that sacrifice. If those guys laid down their lives to fight for their country they'd be pretty gutted to see their country failing to serve their memory. Actually allowing people to burn poppies in the streets of England is total and utter bollox. Anybody who thinks differntly is plain wrong. It doesn't matter who burns the poppies so race is an irrelevance. This is a respect issue.

[kinboshi]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

[sledge13]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

So they can have signs saying "British Soldiers Burn In Hell" and burn poppys, yet if someone had a sign saying "Islam Burn In Hell" and burning the Quran they would be arrested/murdered??!?!?!?!

[kinboshi]

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/RAF-man-turned-away-by.6622575.jp

The taxi driver is an idiot.

There are plenty of wars that are not just, but the servicemen who fought in them (on both sides) aren't the ones to blame.  It's the politicians and those in power who send young men and women to die fighting in places they didn't even know existed until they were sent there.

[kinboshi]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

So they can have signs saying "British Soldiers Burn In Hell" and burn poppys, yet if someone had a sign saying "Islam Burn In Hell" and burning the Quran they would be arrested/murdered??!?!?!?!

What?  You can do both in this country.  Not saying either is right or clever, but you can do those things here.

[Geo the Sarge]

How dare they oppose the poppy - you must be really angry against these guys then:

Soldiers say remember the futility of war on poppy day
Letter to The Independent, 03 November 2010

The Poppy Appeal is once again subverting Armistice Day. A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored.

The public are being urged to wear a poppy in support of "Our Heroes". There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle. There is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about fighting in an unnecessary conflict.

Remembrance should be marked with the sentiment "Never again".
Ben Griffin Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Ben Hayden Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Terry Wood Northern Ireland, Falklands; Ken Lukowiak Northern Ireland, Falklands; Neil Polley Falklands; Steve Pratt Dhofar, Northern Ireland.

The point these guys are making is not anti poppy but the way in which the Poppy Appeal feels the need to have an extended campaign leading up to Armistice day.

Without doubt the day should be about highlighting the futility of war and there is probably no better people to highlight this than service/ex service personnel who have experienced the horrors of war.

Why the Poppy Appeal are forced to do this is fairly simple. Donations to ex service charities have been hit very hard in recent years. The acknowledgement of Combat Stress/PTSD as illnesses brought on by the trauma of war means that there are so many ex service personnel requiring and being entitled to assistance.

The Erskine appeal has also suffered greatly due to a decrease in donations.

Added to this, the founding of Help for Heroes has taken away quite a bit of the funding that otherwise went to charities like the Poppy Appeal for the benefit of ex service personnel. I mentioned previously that many charities supporting ex service personnel had suffered due to people donating to Help for Heroes thinking this also covered ex servicemen. By and large it doesn't and in fact a lot of these donations are used to support supposedly Government run projects for injured serving servicemen/women.

The poppy is the ultimate symbol of rememberance and I would agree that it is probably now abused in the name of fundraising but I also see why.

Just as disgusting was the Parkhead banner. The cry of " and if you know your history" by the minority involved is laughable as the club itself lost at least 8 players in the war, one who had won the VC.

Both groups have the right to protest against what they feel are unjust conflicts, Armistice Day is not the right time and a rememberance parade certainly not the place to hold these protests

Anyway it gives Dan the opportunity to get on his moral high horse again.

Geo. Northern Ireland x 5, Falklands, Iraq 1, Kosovo, Big Bens, Good Companions, Fagins and the Globetrotter.

[kinboshi]

How dare they oppose the poppy - you must be really angry against these guys then:

Soldiers say remember the futility of war on poppy day
Letter to The Independent, 03 November 2010

The Poppy Appeal is once again subverting Armistice Day. A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored.

The public are being urged to wear a poppy in support of "Our Heroes". There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle. There is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about fighting in an unnecessary conflict.

Remembrance should be marked with the sentiment "Never again".
Ben Griffin Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Ben Hayden Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq; Terry Wood Northern Ireland, Falklands; Ken Lukowiak Northern Ireland, Falklands; Neil Polley Falklands; Steve Pratt Dhofar, Northern Ireland.

The point these guys are making is not anti poppy but the way in which the Poppy Appeal feels the need to have an extended campaign leading up to Armistice day.

Without doubt the day should be about highlighting the futility of war and there is probably no better people to highlight this than service/ex service personnel who have experienced the horrors of war.

Why the Poppy Appeal are forced to do this is fairly simple. Donations to ex service charities have been hit very hard in recent years. The acknowledgement of Combat Stress/PTSD as illnesses brought on by the trauma of war means that there are so many ex service personnel requiring and being entitled to assistance.

The Erskine appeal has also suffered greatly due to a decrease in donations.

Added to this, the founding of Help for Heroes has taken away quite a bit of the funding that otherwise went to charities like the Poppy Appeal for the benefit of ex service personnel. I mentioned previously that many charities supporting ex service personnel had suffered due to people donating to Help for Heroes thinking this also covered ex servicemen. By and large it doesn't and in fact a lot of these donations are used to support supposedly Government run projects for injured serving servicemen/women.

The poppy is the ultimate symbol of rememberance and I would agree that it is probably now abused in the name of fundraising but I also see why.

Just as disgusting was the Parkhead banner. The cry of " and if you know your history" by the minority involved is laughable as the club itself lost at least 8 players in the war, one who had won the VC.

Both groups have the right to protest against what they feel are unjust conflicts, Armistice Day is not the right time and a rememberance parade certainly not the place to hold these protests

Anyway it gives Dan the opportunity to get on his moral high horse again.

Geo. Northern Ireland x 5, Falklands, Iraq 1, Kosovo, Big Bens, Good Companions, Fagins and the Globetrotter.

Was going to say great post and that I agreed with it all, until the little personal attack at the end.  I'm the only one on my high horse?

[Geo the Sarge]

LOL

you know fine well I'm ribbing you, but you do go on and on with your points
xx
Geo

[sledge13]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

So they can have signs saying "British Soldiers Burn In Hell" and burn poppys, yet if someone had a sign saying "Islam Burn In Hell" and burning the Quran they would be arrested/murdered??!?!?!?!

What?  You can do both in this country.  Not saying either is right or clever, but you can do those things here.

The difference is you would be arrested and not be pampered like they seem to be a lot of the time, plus you would probably dead within a week for saying anything against the Quran.

[sovietsong]

Whilst I think what happened was terrible I don't think we should give 30 arseholes this amount of coverage.

[kinboshi]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect? 

So they can have signs saying "British Soldiers Burn In Hell" and burn poppys, yet if someone had a sign saying "Islam Burn In Hell" and burning the Quran they would be arrested/murdered??!?!?!?!

What?  You can do both in this country.  Not saying either is right or clever, but you can do those things here.

The difference is you would be arrested and not be pampered like they seem to be a lot of the time, plus you would probably dead within a week for saying anything against the Quran.

Arrested?  No you wouldn't.  I'll say something against the koran and Islam - it can be a cruel and intolerant religion and I'm very relieved I was born and live in the UK rather than an an oppressive muslim state.

Some would disagree with me, and that's fine.  We have the rights to say such things here, and this should be without fear of violence against us.

[Acidmouse]

Whilst I think what happened was terrible I don't think we should give 30 arseholes this amount of coverage.

i agree there was 50k students who didn't do anything!

[Delboy]

I think there are some great points on here.

Dan you are hanging on to a kind of shibboleth here with no real solid foundation. As many have said, there is no such thing as complete freedom of speech, lines are drawn all the time, you know this because you and the team here draw them all the time.

There are situations where someone elses freedom limits mine, so we stop them and we all have different lines - there is no blanket "I defend yr right...etc" that makes any sense at all

The people who have fought and died to protect this country were protecting our freedom - which encompasses many things, such as the basic human rights including the freedom of speech/expression.  Not for one second am I condoning these idiotic actions, but if you look beyond their motives and reasoning, the fact they could do such a thing in this country is actually an indication that we do (to a degree, and that's a whole debate in itself) have a country that allows a great degree of freedom and civil liberties.

Imagine if someone burned a koran in a muslim state, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia?  Do you think they would have been allowed the freedom to make such a protest (for whatever their reasons)? Would there be a debate about their right to demonstrate using non-violent means?  Doesn't that say something about what many have died to protect?  

So they can have signs saying "British Soldiers Burn In Hell" and burn poppys, yet if someone had a sign saying "Islam Burn In Hell" and burning the Quran they would be arrested/murdered??!?!?!?!

What?  You can do both in this country.  Not saying either is right or clever, but you can do those things here.

The difference is you would be arrested and not be pampered like they seem to be a lot of the time, plus you would probably dead within a week for saying anything against the Quran.

Really!?

Depends where you say it I guess. But you do have a right to say what you have against a book/ religion. With the exception of judaism ( because judasim can be considered a race aswell as a religion).

Who going to murder you ?