Prose from a Poshboy

[rfgqqabc]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

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I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

[kinboshi]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

Are you talking now, or previously? 

[jgcblack]

Simon will be inviting my contacts to play a regular 10-25-50 game with me

guess that's me busto then

not even thin

[rfgqqabc]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

Are you talking now, or previously? 

In regards to buying in 500 deep or the value. I think the dtd 1/2 has been poor value in comparison to London, Newcastle or Leeds for a long time despite festival weekends

[kinboshi]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

Are you talking now, or previously? 

In regards to buying in 500 deep or the value. I think the dtd 1/2 has been poor value in comparison to London, Newcastle or Leeds for a long time despite festival weekends

I meant were you referring to the 1/2 games as they were 3-6 months ago, or to as they are now?

[rfgqqabc]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

Are you talking now, or previously? 

In regards to buying in 500 deep or the value. I think the dtd 1/2 has been poor value in comparison to London, Newcastle or Leeds for a long time despite festival weekends

I meant were you referring to the 1/2 games as they were 3-6 months ago, or to as they are now?

I've not been in DTD much in 2012, but as far as I remember, and as far as I've spoken to people in the game, (peejaytwo, my dad has played in the game a bit) people still seem to buy into the game super deep. As far as I'm concerned, i can go to the Empire, and play in a casino with 5x the available tables, all of which are better  value than the corresponding tables at DTD. 9-12 months ago, the 1/2 was ok, but i can't even imagine the state of the games with Belton + PJ added into the regular stable of Mitch+ Goulden etc.

[jgcblack]

Re: Prose from a Poshboy
« Reply #10348 on: Today at 08:18:49 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember Vargas sitting down with 2k and blatchy insta top up to 3 k on a 1 2£ game



we all would with other peoples money

Who wouldn't? Def don't think people by in for5000either. I've got no plans for dtd 1/2 no need when games are softer everywhere else. Worst value 1/2 in England really

Are you talking now, or previously? 

In regards to buying in 500 deep or the value. I think the dtd 1/2 has been poor value in comparison to London, Newcastle or Leeds for a long time despite festival weekends

I meant were you referring to the 1/2 games as they were 3-6 months ago, or to as they are now?

I've not been in DTD much in 2012, but as far as I remember, and as far as I've spoken to people in the game, (peejaytwo, my dad has played in the game a bit) people still seem to buy into the game super deep. As far as I'm concerned, i can go to the Empire, and play in a casino with 5x the available tables, all of which are better  value than the corresponding tables at DTD. 9-12 months ago, the 1/2 was ok, but i can't even imagine the state of the games with Belton + PJ added into the regular stable of Mitch+ Goulden etc.

london is looking better and better every day... only shame is the lack of banter with people that can actually spell their own name.
(for tk's sake )

[BangBang]

Personally, I think there is an issue with the limits.. The 1-2 Regs play as though they’re on a 2-5 5-10 tables and the 50/1 regs play as though they’re on a 1-2 table.   I’d like to see DTD eliminate the 50/1 and just have 1-1 1-2 and above, allowing more serious play by both pro’s and recreational players.  People don’t mind losing £25-£50 but do mind losing say £100-500.

Also the tables are never evenly spread, sometimes they’ll be a 1 full table (Which often breaks when they lose 3 players) and another 2 table of 4 and 3 players, why not introduce feeder/must move tables so they always have at least one constant game.   I’ve also noticed situations where 2 people would leave a table and other players at the table would take it upon themselves to move to other tables in the cash game area without notifying staff, killing the game that they were sat in.  There needs to be more control overall..


The reggy feel to the game is something you get in most clubs but the fact that DTD only ever get 1 or 2 deep games going regularly I think you feel it more.  

I could go on about the club layout/player psychology and other things, but I don’t want to bore anyone…

Anyway that’s my 5 Cents..

Bold bit is one of the main reasons I don't play cash at DTD. Just too easy to lose an uncomfortable amount on a given night

It has been changed.

There is an 'entry-level' 50/1 game with a £100 cap.

There is a 1/1 game with a £250 cap (I think?)

Then there's a 1/2 with no cap and the 2/5 also uncapped.

I'm talking about completely killing the .50/1 game, just having 1-1 and above, maybe lowering the buy-in on the 1-2 to £100 and having a session charge for the 2-5 and above games, especially the DC and Omaha.....

[SuuPRlim]

This is the natural cycle of poker games; games get good, games flourish, games get crowded, games start to die.

Before too long everyone gets interested again and the cycle is repeated.

[jgcblack]

This is the natural cycle of poker games; games get good, games flourish, games get crowded, games start to die.

Before too long everyone gets interested again and the cycle is repeated.

life cycle of most everything..

[SuuPRlim]

Needed doing.

[Honeybadger]

I want to post my thoughts on the issue of the struggling games at DTD. I realise that what I am going to say will sound very critical, and so I have thought long and hard about posting this - especially considering I really like and respect the people I am criticising. I hope my comments will be taken in the way they are intended. I also hope that you guys 'get' what I am saying, and don't misunderstand it/understand it only at a surface level. Please 'read between the lines' a little - a lot of this stuff is really hard to put into words and is about very abstract attitudinal concepts, and I know I have not explained what I want to say as eloquently as I would have liked to. So please try to realise what I am actually saying, rather than simply taking my words at face-value.

My contention is that the reason the DTD games are struggling is that the regs have not fully grasped what it means to be a professional poker player. They are too fixated on relatively unimportant stuff  like playing their hands well, when instead they should be worrying about far more important things - like running their game properly, acting correctly, and keeping their customers happy.

For example, one issue is that the regs (i.e. you guys) choose to make it a 3bet/4bet/5bet game. This means the recreational players can't see flops cheaply. They still call anyway, then check-fold when they miss. Great... you have won more money from them in the short term. But eventually they get sick of it, feel uncomfortable, lose too fast, and stop playing. A customer who might lose 50k to you guys over the space of a couple of years - and really enjoy doing so - quits playing in the game after losing 5k in a few sessions, because he feels he is out of his depth and out of his comfort zone, and is not enjoying himself enough.

I never ever understand it when, say, reg1 isolates a recreational player's limp and then reg2 3bets him. Why would you even have a 3betting range in this spot? JUST FLAT! Let the recreational player(s) into the pot, and play lots of multiway pots with them. Let the customers see some flops cheaply! And realise that the EV they lose will be shared out between you in the long run (you don't need to fight for it). Regs being too greedy to compete for the recreational money (and trying to win money from each other) ends up with them winning less money in the long run. Really good players should rarely 3bet each other if they want to nurture and sustain the games in the long-term. (I have obviously over-stated my case here BTW, and of course I don't really believe you should never 3bet... but you should understand the overall point that I am making)

Obviously if reg1 is isolating too much then the other regs might feel obliged to step in and prevent this by re-isolating him, to 'put him in his place' and prevent him taking more than his fair share of the pie. But in an ideal world all the regs would 'implicitly cooperate' to take their share of the pie without trying for more than their fair share. Instead of worrying about their 3betting ranges they should spend their energy on creating an environment conducive for the recreational players to enjoy themselves. This creates the best possible situation for the regulars to win money, and it also creates the best possible environment for the weaker players to have a great time in the game. So you get the best of both worlds... you win more money and you give 'value' to the recreational players.

A professional poker player is, first and foremost, in the entertainment business. His job is to give his opponents a great time in the game. Or at least to help sustain an environment in which the recreational player feels comfortable and will enjoy himself. If all the regs do this then the money will flow to them naturally. But it requires all regs to 'follow the script' - because if one of them decides to take too many liberties/be too greedy then it almost forces every other reg to do the same. And the result is that the games are worse for everyone, regs and recreational players alike. The regs end up making less money in the long run (despite trying to make more money in the short term) and the weak players don't have as good a time. All the energy that DTD regs spend trying to outlevel and outplay each other would be much better served thinking about how they can act in a manner that nurtures the game.

Let's imagine a recreational player sits in your game and his EV is to lose, say, £500 over the session. 90% of your energy should be spent focussing on trying to make sure he gets VALUE for that £500. The other 10% of your energy you are allowed to spend thinking about more trivial stuff. Like playing your cards well. Giving him value might require one of you to leave the table in order to ensure a healthy balance in the game and give him a punchers chance. It might require all of you to stop 3betting so much. It might require you to start limping sometimes. It might require you to play a bit gentler in pots with him. It might require you to talk about different things at the table. It might require any number of other actions on your part. Or it might require the opposite of these things - every customer has his own preferences. The only important thing is that this guy should get his money's worth from playing with you. And if he is not doing so for any reason at all... it is YOUR fault, you are not doing your job properly. This person has left his place of abode, got in his car, and driven all the way to DTD to his lose money to you. You want him to choose to do so again. So give him the experience that he wants... he is paying you for it.

A while back I played at DTD in a 2/5 game and two of you guys were having a conversation at the table about ICM-based optimal shoving ranges. This is not a good thing. There were two weak spots at the table, and several of you were exchanging 'subtle' knowing looks between yourselves after these weak players showed down hands that they had played terribly. I clocked these glances and it made me cringe inside. Even if the weak players did not see anything (one of them definitely did notice BTW), it demonstrated that you guys do not truly 'get' poker. Start showing the recreational players more respect, and focus more of your energy on providing these guys with what they want. They are your customers, and most of your focus should be on giving them a game that they want to play in. Then everyone wins. And you will have a healthy, vibrant game for years to come.

Clearly everyone agrees that the games at DTD are massively struggling. Yes there is a cyclical effect, and yes the recession isn't helping. However, these things are not the real reason. The real reason is simply this: Many recreational players just do not want to play with you guys. This is 100% the fault of the regulars in the game, and it is up to you to do something about this. Stop thinking about little changes that could be made by DTD to improve things - these changes will scratch the surface at best. The only thing that will ensure the games survive and thrive is if you all start thinking properly about what it really means to be a professional poker player. [Hint: Playing your cards well, whilst obviously necessary, is WAY down the list of important skills and attributes]

And you can respond by saying: "Hold on, we have loads of banter at the table, are friendly, give lots of sick action, and have fun... surely the recreational players will enjoy this!" Well very obviously they do not enjoy the particular environment and atmosphere that you have created, even if you think they 'should'. And this is your fault and your problem, not theirs. You need to think really hard about this. It is your JOB to make the game appealing to your customers. If you are not doing this then you are simply bad at your job.

[titaniumbean]

 


 

[LonOhRay]

One of best posts ever read, and so true.

More Juanda, less Ziigmund.

[DMorgan]

Cliffs:

"You can shear a sheep many times, but skin it only once" - Can't remember who