Tottenham riots

[Geo the Sarge]

love how people in the forces always think the forces are the answer

Traditionally/historically having lots of the criminal element in the army has been a good thing - for the army

It hasn't necessarily reformed all of them into not being criminals outside the army. but they have tended to make good soldiers.

Evidence please?

At what point was a large criminal element introduced into the Army that would support this statement?

The recruiting process has set limits for what is acceptable for past criminilaty. For example, a young person who had been put in front of the court for an offence deemed to be minor enough to be given a conditional discharge (guilty however no actual punishment applied) they would still have to wait something like 12 months after this has been served before being eligible to apply to join up.

Most other sentences would have at least the minimum rehabilitation period attached to it as per The Rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 before being allowed to apply to join up. Even this would not guarantee their acceptance dependant on the type of crime committed.

Geo

Not really relevant to the era's I was referring to

What era's? and again evidence please?

Or is this based on watching The Dirty Dozen?

Geo

I haven't got any history books to hand but here's a reference

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#miscellaneouspunishments

I 'believe' the US did have the army as an alternative to jail in the 20th century but I haven't got the time to look for references.

I know exactly where you are coming from. The Russians especially, used to have Penal Battalions, my point is I doubt there is any evidence that suggests that the criminals made any better a soldier than a non criminal, it is also doubtful that there is any evidence that it helped them be less criminally inclined.

Geo

[highmile]

whilst in basic training at about week 8 or 9  something happened that resulted in me spending 28 days in jail....

 the reason is irrelevant...


the point being.. this  28 days( i think i done 26 two days off for being a good boy)..are what turned me into

a, a good soldier
b, a good civilised human being.

that along with the rest of my training and advaced training i think set me up for life

i honestly believe this would be good for young kids of today

The training, routine and discipline maybe. But you cannot force people to go and put their lives at risk for you own ideals. Might be different if they were required to fight for their country.

i think after two years no fighting war zones etc... then can choose to stay for ..lets say 3 years and go to Afghanistan etc probs 50% would  do...by choice

Yep, that sounds like a very good idea.

[Jon MW]

love how people in the forces always think the forces are the answer

Traditionally/historically having lots of the criminal element in the army has been a good thing - for the army

It hasn't necessarily reformed all of them into not being criminals outside the army. but they have tended to make good soldiers.

Evidence please?

At what point was a large criminal element introduced into the Army that would support this statement?

The recruiting process has set limits for what is acceptable for past criminilaty. For example, a young person who had been put in front of the court for an offence deemed to be minor enough to be given a conditional discharge (guilty however no actual punishment applied) they would still have to wait something like 12 months after this has been served before being eligible to apply to join up.

Most other sentences would have at least the minimum rehabilitation period attached to it as per The Rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 before being allowed to apply to join up. Even this would not guarantee their acceptance dependant on the type of crime committed.

Geo

Not really relevant to the era's I was referring to

What era's? and again evidence please?

Or is this based on watching The Dirty Dozen?

Geo

I haven't got any history books to hand but here's a reference

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#miscellaneouspunishments

I 'believe' the US did have the army as an alternative to jail in the 20th century but I haven't got the time to look for references.

I know exactly where you are coming from. The Russians especially, used to have Penal Battalions, my point is I doubt there is any evidence that suggests that the criminals made any better a soldier than a non criminal, it is also doubtful that there is any evidence that it helped them be less criminally inclined.

Geo

I specifically said that I didn't think it made them less criminally inclined.

I don't think they made 'better' soldiers, they just weren't necessarily worse - it would be a hard subject to research without a lot of work - but the armys a lot of them served in were very good, so that could be seen as circumstantial evidence that they were at least 'as good' as any of the other soldiers.

[AndrewT]

Or is this based on watching The Dirty Dozen?

This could actually be a very good way of reducing the number of troublemakers - train them up for suicide missions against Nazi strongholds.

[Ironside]

i had a debate about this years ago national service isnt the answer but a national community service would be a benifit,young people having to do 6 months or a year  of service to the community after they leave full time education, work in the nhs or the police or army or helping the elderly anything community based to help them feel as if they are part of the community.
other european countries have simliair programs

[Rod Paradise]

i had a debate about this years ago national service isnt the answer but a national community service would be a benifit,young people having to do 6 months or a year  of service to the community after they leave full time education, work in the nhs or the police or army or helping the elderly anything community based to help them feel as if they are part of the community.
other european countries have simliair programs

Works that way in Germany - National Service or National Community Service. I've pals who say that National Service was the making of them & others who were totally anti so went the other route and felt they gained a lot doing the community service. None of them seem to want to do away with it.

[gatso]

whilst in basic training at about week 8 or 9  something happened that resulted in me spending 28 days in jail....

knew you was a wrongun lee 

colchester glasshouse? both my brother and nephew have served time there

[Geo the Sarge]

i had a debate about this years ago national service isnt the answer but a national community service would be a benifit,young people having to do 6 months or a year  of service to the community after they leave full time education, work in the nhs or the police or army or helping the elderly anything community based to help them feel as if they are part of the community.
other european countries have simliair programs

Works that way in Germany - National Service or National Community Service. I've pals who say that National Service was the making of them & others who were totally anti so went the other route and felt they gained a lot doing the community service. None of them seem to want to do away with it.

NCS absolutely, I've never been a supporter of National Service. At the end of the day I'd like to see our military remain a voluntary thing. Having said that, the threat of cumpulsory NS or NCS may push more to choose the NCS option.

However, are we past the point where so little respect for authority deems that it may not be implementable? If so, do we let this group of say 11-20 year olds (just a general range taken here) plod on knowing that there is little chance of changing them now and concentrate on the now Primary age kids and after to ensure we improve for the future?

If we are to inlude all age groups, who would be the monitors/teachers/guidance givers of the NCS. Given that currently teachers/police/social workers etc currently don't get the respect due.

Good debate btw

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

whilst in basic training at about week 8 or 9  something happened that resulted in me spending 28 days in jail....

knew you was a wrongun lee 

colchester glasshouse? both my brother and nephew have served time there

yep deffo a right wrong un there Gats.

28 (with special dispensation good give upto 54 IIRC) days was the maximum sentence a Commanding Officer of a Regiment could pass down and this would normally be done within the Regimental jail under the Regimental Provost staff.

Anything higher would be directed to Courts Martial whereby Colchester Military Corrective Training Centre (MCTC) would be your next stopping point.

You also deffo got wrong uns in your family too 

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

love how people in the forces always think the forces are the answer

Traditionally/historically having lots of the criminal element in the army has been a good thing - for the army

It hasn't necessarily reformed all of them into not being criminals outside the army. but they have tended to make good soldiers.

Evidence please?

At what point was a large criminal element introduced into the Army that would support this statement?

The recruiting process has set limits for what is acceptable for past criminilaty. For example, a young person who had been put in front of the court for an offence deemed to be minor enough to be given a conditional discharge (guilty however no actual punishment applied) they would still have to wait something like 12 months after this has been served before being eligible to apply to join up.

Most other sentences would have at least the minimum rehabilitation period attached to it as per The Rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 before being allowed to apply to join up. Even this would not guarantee their acceptance dependant on the type of crime committed.

Geo

Not really relevant to the era's I was referring to

What era's? and again evidence please?

Or is this based on watching The Dirty Dozen?

Geo

I haven't got any history books to hand but here's a reference

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#miscellaneouspunishments

I 'believe' the US did have the army as an alternative to jail in the 20th century but I haven't got the time to look for references.

I know exactly where you are coming from. The Russians especially, used to have Penal Battalions, my point is I doubt there is any evidence that suggests that the criminals made any better a soldier than a non criminal, it is also doubtful that there is any evidence that it helped them be less criminally inclined.

Geo

I specifically said that I didn't think it made them less criminally inclined.

I don't think they made 'better' soldiers, they just weren't necessarily worse - it would be a hard subject to research without a lot of work - but the armys a lot of them served in were very good, so that could be seen as circumstantial evidence that they were at least 'as good' as any of the other soldiers.

Fair do's. Got me searching regards penal battalions and found this  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat  and from there are links to similar from other countries.

Fascinating reading and something I think any decent person would find absolutely abhorrent in this day and age

Geo

[redarmi]

Apparently a student has just been found guilty of stealing a £3.50 bottle of water from Lidl and sentenced to 6 months despite having no previous convictions.  Difficult to argue we are being overly lenient on the looters given this sentence.

[gatso]

Apparently a student has just been found guilty of stealing a £3.50 bottle of water from Lidl and sentenced to 6 months despite having no previous convictions.  Difficult to argue we are being overly lenient on the looters given this sentence.

£3.50? was the water made of gold?

[redarmi]

Yeah - perhaps it was actually Lidl that were sentenced to 6 months!!!

[Acidmouse]

i like this geezer, normal rants about funny things.

[leethefish]

whilst in basic training at about week 8 or 9  something happened that resulted in me spending 28 days in jail....

knew you was a wrongun lee  

colchester glasshouse? both my brother and nephew have served time there

as geo said it was done at atr bassingbourne/depot the queens division by the Provo staff .....evil fuckers
(in house)