An Ape and a notebook, how long will it take?

[celtic]

John, I have to ask. And I'm happy to be shot down in flames here. But why the fk are you doing althiswin a few dollars, lose a few dollars nonsense?  Exactly what are you learning here?

You claim to have an insane hedge in live tournies <£120. Why don't you knock this grinding on the head and start making proper money, money that  can improve your financial situation in the short term, and build a bankroll, to go on to bigger and better things?

Apologies if this doesn't make sense, but I just can't see how grinding 3 million hands playing ABC poker at 10nl is helping you.

[scotty77]

Having solid fundamentals at something like 10nl is so so important.

Like you I first met John while playing live 1/2 where it was not uncommon for him to be sat a ~bag deep.  What makes a lot of live players so so bad is their unwillingness to play the micros online and get good.  Shows massive amounts of commitment from John to do this...he is really playing the long game.

[celtic]

But he has these fundamentals already surely? Otherwise he wouldn't have been such a consistent winner? What new things is he learning?

[jgcblack]

John, I have to ask. And I'm happy to be shot down in flames here. But why the fk are you doing althiswin a few dollars, lose a few dollars nonsense?  Exactly what are you learning here?

You claim to have an insane hedge in live tournies <£120. Why don't you knock this grinding on the head and start making proper money, money that  can improve your financial situation in the short term, and build a bankroll, to go on to bigger and better things?

Apologies if this doesn't make sense, but I just can't see how grinding 3 million hands playing ABC poker at 10nl is helping you.

Valid points all.

The real question is what do I want from poker -
1. I love the game
2. I want to win in poker, both cash and tournaments
3. I am/ have/ could entertain the idea of playing for a living and im sure I have the discipline and mental ability
4. I currently am pretty under it ££ wise due to a massive 'life' year
5. I am improving, and my dtd500 11th place was a complete testament to this. (bedi won that flip and went on to cash 2nd for £35k.  Im not saying I would have definitely done the same, however with that stack and that field I would've had my best shot yet for a big score


When it comes to your main point about my 'hedge' in live comps, you yourself (and Ryan) have seen that I've had some successes live.  However something to definitely consider is the cost vs skill + variance equation.

Just the cost in time and petrol alone is tough to overcome.
e.g.
I live in Milton Keynes, and while there is going to be a casino next year my current cardroom's of choice are
- Aspers Northampton                           £10 petrol + 30mins
- Luton G                                            £15-20 petrol + 45-60 mins
- DTD Nottingham                                £30 petrol + 75-90mins
- G Coventry                                        £20 petrol + 60mins
- Vic/ Empire/ Fox/ Hippo London           £40-50 petrol + 120mins minimum

All of which are big numbers to be 'down' before you even walk in the building.

Now granted, with the right tournament/ cash games etc then I will clearly be able to overcome this if I am good enough.  Let's look at the numbers vs winrates.
- Aspers Northampton                           10bb/100 in £1/1 cash or to cash 1/3 tournaments
- Luton G                                            10bb/100 in cash or to cash 1/3-1/5 tournaments
- DTD Nottingham                                15bb/100 in cash or to cash 1/5-1/10 tournaments depending on size, often comes with a £30-100/ night room charge since I don't have a regular crashpad
- G Coventry                                        20bb/100 in cash (sometimes smaller when bigger games run) or to cash in 1/2 tournaments since they don't have big buyin events ever..
- Vic/ Empire/ Fox/ Hippo London           anywhere between 40bb- 10bb/100 depending on game I play.. don't play tournaments in most because they're shockingly bad value.

No matter how good I think I am vs how good I really am, those are big numbers to overcome.... couple that with late nights + travelling alone + working a 9-5 job that includes travel away and all of a sudden it becomes pretty tough.


One thing I am optimistic about is that when the new casino in MK comes about, I'm actually going to contact them before they open and try to strike a relationship with the management to understand their take on poker.  If they are into it and want some help/ assistance with the local community then I will try to get myself on-board as some sort of 'non paid consultant' - purely in order to make sure the cardroom is the best it can be for the buyin levels they want to hit.  As a result I hope to ensure a constant, consistent, quality game 10mins away... where I can earn a very high bb/100 and cost myself the absolute minimum.




Now take all of the above and look at it vs grinding 10nl. 

I get to play on a stake, which is currently not making money but that is not worrying Patrick from what I can see.  He is more concerned with me burning his $$ on fps, most of which I have curtailed and learned to apply in much more sensible, logical and profitable scenarios.


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I myself purchased a more than adequate grinding machine which provides me with excellent tools to do my 'work' from home.
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It costs me nothing in time/ petrol/ hassle, other than making sure I take care of myself and my girlfriend to the best of my ability within a compromise that is reasonable.
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I can learn from many very strong theoretical players who I have access to through the internet, skype, video sites and friends.
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I can even sweat them live on the computer and get direct, current, and relevant information all in the comfort of wearing only my pants.
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I get to sit in an absolutely gorgeous if a little extravagant chair that my parents bought me to compliment my choice which they didn't agree with initially but they see the effort I am putting in.
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I have played close to 200k hands this year (potentially more I'm really not sure) and have come a long long way in only 7 months.
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I will hopefully be able to get to and stick at 25nl by the years end, with my long holiday from 10th Dec onwards I may even be able to move through 25nl by next year.
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At 50nl Patrick has made it clear he will be putting coaching me at a higher priority because he feels his understanding of the game and how to change/ adapt and learn will help me become a much greater player than other methods.
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At 50nl Patrick and I will have the opportunity to really make some real money at this game, and for me - with nothing at risk this is a perfect outcome.
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In the meantime where possible I am still taking the occasional 'shots' @ live play with some spare overtime or money I have in online accounts I hadn't freed up.  This and a more BRM approach to live will eventually allow me to 'build' a roll properly.
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And on top of all of this... learning about 'true' variance and really understanding the game on a much greater, deeper, more fundamental level has made me 3/4/5 times the player I was in Feb before I started this diary.

In closing - this diary is the single greatest choice I've made to improve at poker, ever.



Thanks to all of you who help on a daily basis, I hope you will continue to do so..... Even if I do somehow start winning and entertaining you all much less.

[scotty77]

But he has these fundamentals already surely? Otherwise he wouldn't have been such a consistent winner? What new things is he learning?

Having an insane hedge in live comps just isnt sustainable.  No one can make a living out of the local room sub 150 tournies.  The money just ain't there and the edges aren't big enough.  The samples are so small too that if you do have a good few months/year then it gives you a massively skewed expectation of what you can earn.  The 500/1ks maybe but you need a massive roll and the expenses are incred.  

So then it's back to live cash and the best way to learn to beat live cash is to beat online cash.  Most of the winning regs at the G would have serious trouble winning over a 50k sample at 10nl online.  The gulf really is that big.

Then again there are some of the winning regs at the G who have some pretty sick live skills that an online player just wouldn't pick up on so there is some plus points to grinding live and getting experience in that way but if you can win online then you can win live too but the opposite isn't true.  Online is just so much more flexible and give you a lot more freedom then live too.

[muckthenuts]

John, I have to ask. And I'm happy to be shot down in flames here. But why the fk are you doing althiswin a few dollars, lose a few dollars nonsense?  Exactly what are you learning here?

You claim to have an insane hedge in live tournies <£120. Why don't you knock this grinding on the head and start making proper money, money that  can improve your financial situation in the short term, and build a bankroll, to go on to bigger and better things?

Apologies if this doesn't make sense, but I just can't see how grinding 3 million hands playing ABC poker at 10nl is helping you.

I doubt financial gain is at the forefront of John's thinking atm, i mean he's staked playing $0.05-$0.10. However getting all the hands in he's doing at present will undoubtedly make him a better player, and you can only do this online. NL10 isn't necessarily a walk in the park, you definitely need solid fundamentals to beat that level well and once he gets those he can go on from there. This patience will pay off for him huge in the end.

[jgcblack]

But he has these fundamentals already surely? Otherwise he wouldn't have been such a consistent winner? What new things is he learning?

Having an insane hedge in live comps just isnt sustainable.  No one can make a living out of the local room sub 150 tournies.  The money just ain't there and the edges aren't big enough.  The samples are so small too that if you do have a good few months/year then it gives you a massively skewed expectation of what you can earn.  The 500/1ks maybe but you need a massive roll and the expenses are incred.  

So then it's back to live cash and the best way to learn to beat live cash is to beat online cash.  Most of the winning regs at the G would have serious trouble winning over a 50k sample at 10nl online.  The gulf really is that big.

Then again there are some of the winning regs at the G who have some pretty sick live skills that an online player just wouldn't pick up on so there is some plus points to grinding live and getting experience in that way but if you can win online then you can win live too but the opposite isn't true.  Online is just so much more flexible and give you a lot more freedom then live too.

One of my greatest strengths is that I have a 'true' appreciation of what many 'live players' think, feel, and do.  Which you just cannot gain from online....

However, part of that is also realizing that live players in general - suck at actual poker.  They may be able to win 'this hand this time' but the massive majority of all live players I can think of really do have some giant fundamental errors in their games...
One thing I really hope to be able to do on my return to Aspers Cash, when I finally do make a comeback is to approach the game in a properly professional way, rebuild/ repair bridges I burnt in my poker 'youth' and to grind out a solid, stead and crushing bb/100 in comparison with the rest of the players.

I went down to there a few weeks ago and looked at the cash game while I was playing their monthly 'deepstack' to only say to myself.... "the games really that soft.." (rounders style)
The dealer just looked at me, then the game... chuckled and looked at me as if to say "are you serious?".  Yes there are some 'regs' playing by Aspers standards, there were 8 players playing... and only 2 or 3 can really spell both 'poker' and 'fold'.

But that is a little while off...

Needless to say, if I'm honest - I think if i lived close enough to play dtd during the week, I would be trying to make myself one of the strongest <£100 mtt reg there during the week while Alex, PJ, Sean, etc, etc are all playing cash. 
But I don't, so I'm not.

[jgcblack]

John, I have to ask. And I'm happy to be shot down in flames here. But why the fk are you doing althiswin a few dollars, lose a few dollars nonsense?  Exactly what are you learning here?

You claim to have an insane hedge in live tournies <£120. Why don't you knock this grinding on the head and start making proper money, money that  can improve your financial situation in the short term, and build a bankroll, to go on to bigger and better things?

Apologies if this doesn't make sense, but I just can't see how grinding 3 million hands playing ABC poker at 10nl is helping you.

I doubt financial gain is at the forefront of John's thinking atm, i mean he's staked playing $0.05-$0.10. However getting all the hands in he's doing at present will undoubtedly make him a better player, and you can only do this online. NL10 isn't necessarily a walk in the park, you definitely need solid fundamentals to beat that level well and once he gets those he can go on from there. This patience will pay off for him huge in the end.

Financial gain is clearly one of the driving factors in the 'long game' however for me to be playing 4/6/10 tables of 100nl and crushing a 3-5bb/100 winrate which would equate to plenty of ££'s to play with.  I need to get better at poker, at understanding game flow, dynamics, opponents, ranges, adjusting and many more things..

All of which will equate to me absolutely crushing live when I decide to have a 'fun night' out.  Obviously I won't be able to win all the time and the fundamental differences between online and live will probably ensure that live has higher variance (due to the sheer vast array of plays people think are a good idea) but if I could make 'some' money in the past... then even if I just remove the errors I used to make that will translate to a lot of +ve ££'s in future.


So it was said.

[jgcblack]

John, I have to ask. And I'm happy to be shot down in flames here. But why the fk are you doing althiswin a few dollars, lose a few dollars nonsense?  Exactly what are you learning here?

You claim to have an insane hedge in live tournies <£120. Why don't you knock this grinding on the head and start making proper money, money that  can improve your financial situation in the short term, and build a bankroll, to go on to bigger and better things?

Apologies if this doesn't make sense, but I just can't see how grinding 3 million hands playing ABC poker at 10nl is helping you.

As one of the few who have known me for a 'long time' in my poker 'life'....

What do you think now of me at a live table compared with the past -
play?
attitude?
demeanor?

[jgcblack]

Few hands today.. better day for me - a couple of 'mistakes', possibly.

http://wt.ag/SAKOCu
He had a really high squeeze over a small sample, so i took a risk..

http://wt.ag/SAKNOU
induce-a-ments

http://wt.ag/SAKSlP
possibly a mistake... however he also had a massive squeeze % and 100% cbet over small sample.. the A is a perfect barrel card and if he's OOL then he can potentially bet/bet/shove like I used to because 'my' range is weak.
Unsure about this... don't like reraising pre as I just make him fold everything.. potentially raise the flop but I actually planned on shoving over a turn cbet, then an A becomes a bad card to do this on and he only bet/calls A's - but may triple all sorts....

http://wt.ag/SAKTpP
meh... 50p

http://wt.ag/SAL0le
NNNNiiiice!

http://wt.ag/SAL98q
meh - sucks..

http://wt.ag/SALd8c
pretty sweet turn... overbet to determine if he has a hand I can shove vs on the river.  If he doesn't have a 10, he folds turn anyways...

http://wt.ag/SALgAM
interesting..

http://wt.ag/SALkAv
meh...

http://wt.ag/SALmbu
sweet river..

http://wt.ag/SALqIm
it's a shame he doesn't have more..

http://wt.ag/SALuYL
I hero'd a little... just thought something didn't add up, I was 'kinda' right.

[jgcblack]

Played a second session after some food and a chillout watching the end of Season 6 of 'How i met you mother'.

Had some serious rungood early on.. but it was in some ridiculous spots.


Just the interesting hands as this diary is getting a little too hh heavy for my liking - on the good side though the hands are improving every day.

http://wt.ag/QMpFc1
Just peel a 4bt n hope... lol then when I cr turn.. he calls it off... turns out it was good vs my hand here.. but I don't think its good vs my range.
(he had massive 3bt so figured 4bt or fold pre.. then when he checks back flop he never has Qx +.. so directly <10's imo.  Didn't think he would bet/call.)

http://wt.ag/QMpGwz
Turn wise, I didn't like any of my options..  betting 2.50 is just going to get shoved on by 99+ all the time, check-folding is clearly 'the play' but sucks, and check calling is criminal.
#gotthere

http://wt.ag/QMpI7S
sick turn.. did all the work for me.

http://wt.ag/QMpLR4
Genuinely misread my position and thought I was BB, so accidentally cr here.  Once I do I think i 'should' go with it (confirmed by group) however when he min3bt the flop I think he is really strong a lot.  I did discuss the possibility of folding here, but the guys thought I was trollolololing since he 'should' have a range that includes mega draws some % of the time.

http://wt.ag/QMpPAb
seems spewy im sure, at the time I was sure the UTG was fos, and the btn 'insta-raised' meaning he just clicked the button... I figured he would be Ax/ pair heavy and that if he folded his pairs then great, but if not then "fark it" we gots A and a Q with 23 dead bb's in the middle.
#dontleavethesoldiersoutthere

http://wt.ag/QMpTjm
don't think we're ever ahead on this river.. but hate to cc/ cf... think we have to bet/fold.

http://wt.ag/QMpYDJ
at the time i thought raise/folding here was genius for the thin value.. now not so sure... I've been doing a LOT of thin value raises to river donks/ leads/ bets and so far really come out well with it.
Best so far was QQ vs JJ on Kxxxx where I raise river 1.10 to 3.60 or something and he tank calls it off.... thanks for the extra 25bb's - that's a LOT /100.



Cliffs
Played two sessions today and tbh kinda crushed...

Still not perfect, still some % of mistakes.  But I'm doing well with:

[ ] calling raises with medium/weak hands
[X] adjusting well to the few people with preflop aggression issues
[X] value betting much better than 'them' overall
[ ] value cutting myself as much as i used to
[ ] random spew bluffing a stack cos I don't like pleno's money
[X] blue line up, green up, orange up and red downish.. (still up)
[X] feeling good and enjoying my poker




Interesting extra - check out my last 25k hands.
Fairly sure I've had some decent starting hands a lot, but seems like I'm close to EV and keeping it consistent.
Maybe, just maybe... I've learned.

[TL900]

the bottom one looks like a darn good 10nl graph, all the lines in the right spots

[jgcblack]

the bottom one looks like a darn good 10nl graph, all the lines in the right spots

thanks mate, told you I was 'really' listening about two weeks ago.

I meant it.

[LonOhRay]

the bottom one looks like a darn good 10nl graph, all the lines in the right spots

This, and running under EV!

[jgcblack]

Just firing up a session, lemme know if anyone wants to sweat..

Didn't play too great tbh, not really sure why.
Going to have a think about it and try to work out what was 'wrong'.

Managed to book a nice win which is always good, but should've lost a little overall..


Made a big mistake in a pot where I have   vs   on

          - we get it in on the turn 200bb each when I cbet turn 1.74 and he makes it 5.25.  I just shoved and binked. mbn.
(as you can see from the graph.. I was on the 'comeback' from playing badly after binking a flip early on... then bit stagnant for a few mins then this happens... maybe that was something to do with it - major difference from the past is I'm 'blowing' with a hand/ nut draw in a spot where my opponent actually can have 'worse' some % -  type hands obv)
(not that i think he has them that much really...)


Other than that, made a few hero's at the start and played a few pots badly.. probably should've finished a couple bi up and level with EV if i played better.