Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[The Camel]

It's amazing how sensitive these poker players are. Maybe the truth hurts

They are selling because they are decent blokes, which as I said is fine IMO to get people back on their feet. But ain't right if they pocket the winnings of an already lopsided deal, give it to their missus to build another extension on their mansions before reverting back to selling at what is again a deal that offers the backer nothing but variance

For a deal to be fair IMO both sides need some leeway. Marc obviously has a longterm roi expectation of well over 16%, so he offers the backers a decent incentive. Maybe some of these people selling at 1.4 have longterm expectations of 100% rois, I mean I severely doubt it but luckily for them it will never be proven anyway. But if they are that sure of their abilities it would be nice if they put some reddies up to back it up. As we like to say "Put up or shut up"

Gamblers opinion means nothing whilst the money stays in the clip

Poker is like sex and driving.

Almost everyone thinks they are better at it than they actually are.

If everyone knew how bad they were at poker there wouldn't be a game.

If Jake Cody or Toby Lewis showed up for a tournament, no-one else would play!

[smashedagain]

It's amazing how sensitive these poker players are. Maybe the truth hurts

They are selling because they are decent blokes, which as I said is fine IMO to get people back on their feet. But ain't right if they pocket the winnings of an already lopsided deal, give it to their missus to build another extension on their mansions before reverting back to selling at what is again a deal that offers the backer nothing but variance

For a deal to be fair IMO both sides need some leeway. Marc obviously has a longterm roi expectation of well over 16%, so he offers the backers a decent incentive. Maybe some of these people selling at 1.4 have longterm expectations of 100% rois, I mean I severely doubt it but luckily for them it will never be proven anyway. But if they are that sure of their abilities it would be nice if they put some reddies up to back it up. As we like to say "Put up or shut up"

Gamblers opinion means nothing whilst the money stays in the clip

Poker is like sex and driving.

Almost everyone thinks they are better at it than they actually are.

If everyone knew how bad they were at poker there wouldn't be a game.

If Jake Cody or Toby Lewis showed up for a tournament, no-one else would play!

lol Keith. batteries are always top of my wifes shopping list. i am lucky to have a license. i now blame varience. and my twins are called Jake and Toby and hope they grow up to be the luckiest buggers ever

[SuuPRlim]

It's amazing how sensitive these poker players are. Maybe the truth hurts

They are selling because they are decent blokes, which as I said is fine IMO to get people back on their feet. But ain't right if they pocket the winnings of an already lopsided deal, give it to their missus to build another extension on their mansions before reverting back to selling at what is again a deal that offers the backer nothing but variance

For a deal to be fair IMO both sides need some leeway. Marc obviously has a longterm roi expectation of well over 16%, so he offers the backers a decent incentive. Maybe some of these people selling at 1.4 have longterm expectations of 100% rois, I mean I severely doubt it but luckily for them it will never be proven anyway. But if they are that sure of their abilities it would be nice if they put some reddies up to back it up. As we like to say "Put up or shut up"

Gamblers opinion means nothing whilst the money stays in the clip

yh. I think it's the responsibility of the player to offer "fair" value in a community like blonde where everyone trusts each other, whereas the "market move the price" theory is ofc correct this is Blonde, not the stock market.

People should just be careful not to be rude whilst opposing a mark-up. I remember in my ME thread someone who doesn't know anything about me came in and said that I was defo not value at 1.4, was cheeky to try charge it and then made some assumptions about my finances all in public. This too me is way out of line and tilted me a lot, but coming in and saying

"Mark-up seems very high, can you show us HDM/HEM graphs/P5's or something to further justify, without seeing something else I'm not sure this is good value"

would be completely fine, and justified imo.

This all hinges on being a nit and actually caring about what anyone's actual ROI is, if you buy and it's "his/her day" you're going to win, if it's not then you wont.

most people who sell pieces on blonde prolly aren't even profitable long term in the tourney they are playing in but i'm not going to call people out in public because that's just my opinion and I have no way to back it up, if someone came to me and said "i'm gonna take X% of Y person do you think he's a good buy" my answer about 70% of the time will be "no, but i'd defo do it anyway"

[deeiron]

In reply to Plenos posts as Im one of the stakers involved with the player in question. 3 of us jointly stake various local N.E. players

Always found player a genuine & honest lad and very much respected around Newcastle area and since agreeing to play for us has done nothing but been spot on and commited to the agreement we have in place

We didnt know of any previous problems or deals he had with anyone else nor do I see that as any business of ours with regards to any debt involved to previous backers. Ive no doubt also that the player concerned will give his side of what happened in due course and reply to the accusations that have been made.

If Pleno is owed any money from him then Im also very confident that the player in question will honour any debt due


Thanks

[pleno1]

In reply to Plenos posts as Im one of the stakers involved with the player in question. 3 of us jointly stake various local N.E. players

Always found player a genuine & honest lad and very much respected around Newcastle area and since agreeing to play for us has done nothing but been spot on and commited to the agreement we have in place

We didnt know of any previous problems or deals he had with anyone else nor do I see that as any business of ours with regards to any debt involved to previous backers. Ive no doubt also that the player concerned will give his side of what happened in due course and reply to the accusations that have been made.

If Pleno is owed any money from him then Im also very confident that the player in question will honour any debt due


Thanks

Hi Dave,

Thanks for giving your side of story. I disagree that it is no business of yours if one of my horses starts playing for somebody else whilst in makeup and still owing money, without offering me the chance to stake him for this.

If you're very confident he will pay debt due, I don't mind selling the debt to you at 0.8. It has been going on since June last year..

[Simon Galloway]

nono, the new staker doesn't let him withdraw any profits for 6 months as it allows the stake to grow and him play higher or wte.

If the new staker isnt a complete schmuck... he will put this right for you out of the horse's profits. 

If another staker came to me with documented evidence of a wrong-doing by one of my current horses, I would put it right, or put a plan in place to put it right, or drop the horse.

OK... I take it back, lol.

Not too much evidence of the staker's code of honour. 

Oh and

If you're very confident he will pay debt due, I don't mind selling the debt to you at 0.8. It has been going on since June last year..

Pleno finally gets the hang of it.

[pleno1]

fwiw despite my previous troubles with Teamdobb/deeiron would trust him as much/more than anybody else in poker. Def trustworthy and not his fault that he didn't know about our staking agreement. I'm sure he will sort it out now.

[deeiron]

fwiw despite my previous troubles with Teamdobb/deeiron would trust him as much/more than anybody else in poker. Def trustworthy and not his fault that he didn't know about our staking agreement. I'm sure he will sort it out now.

thank you Patrick for kinds words and it will deffo get sorted. Can you email me please with what is owed and your settlement amount. Mulhuzz has my email or leave it at blog 

[deeiron]

nono, the new staker doesn't let him withdraw any profits for 6 months as it allows the stake to grow and him play higher or wte.

If the new staker isnt a complete schmuck... he will put this right for you out of the horse's profits. 

If another staker came to me with documented evidence of a wrong-doing by one of my current horses, I would put it right, or put a plan in place to put it right, or drop the horse.

OK... I take it back, lol.

Not too much evidence of the staker's code of honour. 

Oh and

If you're very confident he will pay debt due, I don't mind selling the debt to you at 0.8. It has been going on since June last year..

Pleno finally gets the hang of it.

probs badly explained by me but deffo getting any monies owed to Pleno sorted which is the most important thing once we know all the facts and figures. Matter should of been dealt with in far better way imo but getting sorted now

[MANTIS01]

Firstly, the rate people sell at is seen as an ability indication and that’s why other players get their knickers in a twist about it. Pure ego thing rather than genuine worry for the welfare of random buyers. Such and such a player shouldn’t be selling at such and such a rate as they aren’t good enough to justify that mark up. In other words that player is over-estimating his ability. Good luck to everybody who fights the battle of getting poker players to not over-estimate their ability, because that battle is against 100% of poker players.

Secondly, quantifying whether a one off punt is worthwhile from a pure maths perspective is an awkward business. It’s hard to justify why people paid so much for that ugly toby jug when the expert said it wasn’t worth the money. Perhaps they were collectors and needed that one to complete the set or perhaps they just liked the colour. In the same vein somebody might pay over the odds for staking because of a profitable history with that player or simply because they woke up with a good feeling about that player’s chances. If you dreamt you won the lottery you might wake up and buy a ticket. If somebody at the counter says they are concerned about how –EV that coup is you would be like wtf who are you? i've got a feeling baby!

How do you quantify the value of your personal hunch to 0.1 or 0.2 of a %? Maths can’t be purely applied if there is any hint of romance in a coup and a one off stake in a big comp is absolutely a romantic notion. Market forces will dictate the success of a proposal and hence comment simply doesn't need to be made about perceived value from anybody uninvolved in the process. I think it's quite rude actually.

Thirdly and finally whenever there is talk of poker community it makes me rofl.

Very good post, only disagree on one point, I think feedback is a part of the pricing process, and blonde's staking forum is the obvious place for it. Think of it as like the programme watchdog calling out people selling dodgy antiques, yeah the buyers are fine with it and the antiques look the same, which is all that really matters if they're being bought for their aesthetic value, but it's still not on.

Let's concede feedback is part of the pricing process. Afterall when the toby jug was sold bargain hunt man said "wtf that was a lot". And in doing so the expert informs all of us to be mindful of the true value of ugly toby jugs in the future, tyty. Importantly thou the timing of the feedback is appropriate. I didn't see people standing up while the auction was in progress shouting zomg at this price for an ugly toby jug.

[craigmc]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

Hi, feel the need to give my version of this as some of the facts are not quite accurate

At the start of the stake you sent me £450 to deposit in a euro site and to use Nettella which i did. Started playing and after a few weeks decided playing cash wasnt for me so ask to end stake. You agree so i withdraw the money back through Nettella this is where i mess up and i lock the account with the money still in there explain to you and your happy give me time to sort it out after several attempts via email and phone calls i'm still no further so agree to pay you back as it was my fault. I have paid you back a majority of the money owed and haven't had alot of money the past few months so found it hard to pay more.

I am not going to make excuses because it is my fault the account has been locked, but i don't agree with you making me out to be ripping you off when i have every intention to pay you back the full amount but i do agree it should have been sorted by now and if i had the money to pay you I would have.

Also will agree i should have discussed this with Deeiron as he had no idea i was staked/owed you any money

[GreekStein]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

Hi, feel the need to give my version of this as some of the facts are not quite accurate

At the start of the stake you sent me £450 to deposit in a euro site and to use Nettella which i did. Started playing and after a few weeks decided playing cash wasnt for me so ask to end stake. You agree so i withdraw the money back through Nettella this is where i mess up and i lock the account with the money still in there explain to you and your happy give me time to sort it out after several attempts via email and phone calls i'm still no further so agree to pay you back as it was my fault. I have paid you back a majority of the money owed and haven't had alot of money the past few months so found it hard to pay more.

I am not going to make excuses because it is my fault the account has been locked, but i don't agree with you making me out to be ripping you off when i have every intention to pay you back the full amount but i do agree it should have been sorted by now and if i had the money to pay you I would have.

Also will agree i should have discussed this with Deeiron as he had no idea i was staked/owed you any money

can you prove the account is still locked?

[craigmc]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

Hi, feel the need to give my version of this as some of the facts are not quite accurate

At the start of the stake you sent me £450 to deposit in a euro site and to use Nettella which i did. Started playing and after a few weeks decided playing cash wasnt for me so ask to end stake. You agree so i withdraw the money back through Nettella this is where i mess up and i lock the account with the money still in there explain to you and your happy give me time to sort it out after several attempts via email and phone calls i'm still no further so agree to pay you back as it was my fault. I have paid you back a majority of the money owed and haven't had alot of money the past few months so found it hard to pay more.

I am not going to make excuses because it is my fault the account has been locked, but i don't agree with you making me out to be ripping you off when i have every intention to pay you back the full amount but i do agree it should have been sorted by now and if i had the money to pay you I would have.

Also will agree i should have discussed this with Deeiron as he had no idea i was staked/owed you any money

can you prove the account is still locked?

I haven't tried to access the account for sometime now but sure i will be able to dig the details for account up and prove it that way, I also gave pleno the accounts deets and password when it first happened (was the first reset password i recieved from Nettella)

[GreekStein]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

Hi, feel the need to give my version of this as some of the facts are not quite accurate

At the start of the stake you sent me £450 to deposit in a euro site and to use Nettella which i did. Started playing and after a few weeks decided playing cash wasnt for me so ask to end stake. You agree so i withdraw the money back through Nettella this is where i mess up and i lock the account with the money still in there explain to you and your happy give me time to sort it out after several attempts via email and phone calls i'm still no further so agree to pay you back as it was my fault. I have paid you back a majority of the money owed and haven't had alot of money the past few months so found it hard to pay more.

I am not going to make excuses because it is my fault the account has been locked, but i don't agree with you making me out to be ripping you off when i have every intention to pay you back the full amount but i do agree it should have been sorted by now and if i had the money to pay you I would have.

Also will agree i should have discussed this with Deeiron as he had no idea i was staked/owed you any money

can you prove the account is still locked?

I haven't tried to access the account for sometime now but sure i will be able to dig the details for account up and prove it that way, I also gave pleno the accounts deets and password when it first happened (was the first reset password i recieved from Nettella)

well seems poor form regardless that you haven't really pursued this and made sure it's unlocked. Since Pleno hasn't been paid in full, it's basically his money in there and your responsibility to get it out.

Imo you're hugely in the wrong already, despite your intentions or what you've said already.

When you say 'several attempts via email and phone calls' could you post some of the emails and the responses you got?

[claypole]

The policeman is BACK lol