Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[bobby1]

I am not talking about either of those guys. The guy I know of is based in England

[Junior Senior]

Just my opinion...I have always thought it a little cheeky when I see these 70/30 fully staked by backers. The player wants to free roll the event but is basically saying up front that I don't want to have my own cash at risk. It isn't rocket science surely, if you are not rolled to play a 500 event, or you are not comfy putting your money into it, why are you asking to play it?

Just play the 50/100/150 that you can afford.

Personally, its nothing to do with not wanting to risk my own money lol. I stated on my thread that I will be moving out of my parents house soon and moving in with my girlfriend. This means buy furniture, appliances and all that other stuff, along with getting a mortgage. I cannot justify playing poker when we need the money for other things.

All I wanted to do was get a chance to play a tournament with a massive prizepool to attempt to bink a score for myself/investors. By the sounds of things, you want people to play for free?

When people have a bet they should bet to their pocket.

If I have £500 on something I pay for it myself, If I cannot afford it I have what I can afford. If I grouped a set of people together and told them I fancied something at a really big price but didn't want to risk my own money, then said I want you all to club £500 together and put it on my selection, if it wins I want 30% of the winnings they would tell me to fuck off, and rightly so.

I accept that poker staking is seen differently but at the end of the day if you cannot afford to play poker because you have put your money into more important things, and girlfriends and houses and appliances are far more important, then you should cut your cloth accordingly.

I bet you have spent less on going out, maybe cut a few corners here and there too to make those things happen, then do the same with the pokering too.

The mentality seems to be 'I can not afford this now but I will sell my action to my mates at mates rates that favour me, not them.'

Where I come from mates rates mean the mate gets a discount, not pays a premium.let[==

My view isn't person specific by the way, it is just how I see it as a whole.

Phil - some of your points are kind of mising the point here. a staking proposition is a two way thing.  I am not asking someone to take me to dinner or buy me a telly so i can have a better telly and not let anyone else watch it.  By asking for staking I believe that I can genuinely make a profit for both staker and myself, hence a mutually beneficial arrangement. As long as the up front proposal is honest and the backer is happy with it what business is it of anyone elses?

I spoke to Fraser last night and had a text off Tikay this lunch time both saying they would back me again and were more than happy with the agreement.

[Junior Senior]

.  You're taking money out of the poker community at no expense to yourself with no intention of putting any back in.

or as its sometimes known being a winning player

again look at the benefits to both backer and staker in these deals - both of which are voluntarily entering into an agreement

[Junior Senior]

I read almost every staking thread on this forum and have done for years and at times I think a player’s proposal represents value and if I have a few quid spare I get involved.  If I feel it isn’t value and I don’t want to invest, I ignore it. I take particular issue with Doobs here who for some reason feels he can publically decide, be judge and Jury and comment who is and who isn’t value... should we care about your opinion or just expect you to politely not get involved if you’re not interested? I wonder if you examine every item on eBay each day and flame the sale price and seller on their forum if they are selling their tut for a price you don’t like?...

I am pretty sure I have only ever commented once on a proposal on the staking board that I wasn't involved, and pretty much regretted it not long after.  Even then I was trying to be construcive, but realised it was never going to come across that way to some.  Hence I am not sure where you get the idea that I like to publically decide who is and who isn't value. 

I am not even sure why you have taken particular offence to me, and not the others who share the same view.  It seems you are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of, by naming and shaming just the one person.

Anyway better be off, Bobby1 made my point far better than I did. 

Good night.

Half way down page 4 sir... check what you said "its perfectly ok to criticise on a public forum"

I would rather those that weren't interested in the proposition just went and did something else like play a quiz in the lounge or something

[tikay]

Well, let's put it this way. A quick way to make 200 quid a week is to sell 100% of your action in a 200 event to 2 totally different sets of people.

Play the game with a view to not cashing and you have made 200.

from what I hear the dutch guy did this in the EPT and won it, but had sold 105%, then did a runner!! never been seen since!

He re-appeared recently, Mr Q, as he periodically seems to.

I believe he was involved in a legal dispute with 2+2 Forums, having (allegedly) taken a "copycat" domain name. I believe 2+2 won the case, & were awarded symbolic damages.

I'll try & find a link for you.

Tony, why are you posting about Dutch Boyd when everyone else is talking about Constant Rijkenberg?

Lol, I got confused.

Still, interesting story. Well I thought so, anyway.....

And anyway, I've never heard of this Constant chap, though doubtless the name will recur.....frequently.

[Junior Senior]

As has been said, a great thread. I think there are so many factors at play when staking - especially the community angle that exists on Blonde.

When I decide to stake someone, I consider three things in this order; do I think they represent good value, if less so, are they a member of the community I'd like to support (within reason), and do I want a punt.  I also consider the tournament and buy in and make a decision.  An example would be the recent £500 at DTD - I was happy to take a piece in Sharky and JJandellis based on the fact they were selling with minimal mu, had a couple of pieces of evidence that suggested "solid" and most that fall into this category will be decent value at spot at DTD in these diverse fields.  Clearly, the larger the investment, the more skewed my decision is towards the first point; good value.  Another important factor is trust; guess work at times but over time you get better. Good example, I'd trust Dubai, Trigg explicitly from a monetary perspective due to their historic behaviour with me, others I may think twice about.

I think the 70/30 deals don't represent good value; however I have a choice and if I am posting in a staking thread I have the accountability to make sure I know enough and know I am paying 1.4:1.3.  I had a small piece of Tom, no probs with that; stalwart of the community, top bloke, solid, and I wanted a punt.

Personally, when asking for staking I have a sort of personal code of ethics. When it's last minute and I think I'm asking for the favour, or it's just to reduce variance or allow me to practise BRM,I have sold at lower rates than I know I represent. Some have said that is stupid, however I see that as a situation where its a two way relationship.  I have also approached people direct and offered a discount, also given a discount to regular backers.  I think there's an element of customer service too - I haven't had to put a thread up for a while as I have small group of customers who will support; like to think some of that is because I keep them informed, pay promptly, offer the odd discount and play ok.

Marc is a good example of above as well, as he said he has sold pieces at 1.15 ish - he has his won reasons as he stated; what's not in doubt is incredible value, so he's created a customer base itching to take a piece whenever he posts.  Being an incred player clearly helps.

I guess is summary, my view on all of this is it's a personal choice of the staker and stakee and the market will be driven by supply and demand.  Our accountability as a community is to encourage and open and transparent market, where there is a good level of trust.  A consistent approach to pricing my help that.  The actual price; well it's all the factors you consider as an individual, personal to you.  I think a lot works here; someone correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one staking "issue" or "grim" or issue with paying back - that's a great compliment to the members here and long may it continue.

haha, can tell you were to be an HRD! good, well structured post!

[GreekStein]

Well, let's put it this way. A quick way to make 200 quid a week is to sell 100% of your action in a 200 event to 2 totally different sets of people.

Play the game with a view to not cashing and you have made 200.

from what I hear the dutch guy did this in the EPT and won it, but had sold 105%, then did a runner!! never been seen since!

He re-appeared recently, Mr Q, as he periodically seems to.

I believe he was involved in a legal dispute with 2+2 Forums, having (allegedly) taken a "copycat" domain name. I believe 2+2 won the case, & were awarded symbolic damages.

I'll try & find a link for you.

Tony, why are you posting about Dutch Boyd when everyone else is talking about Constant Rijkenberg?

Lol, I got confused.

Still, interesting story. Well I thought so, anyway.....

And anyway, I've never heard of this Constant chap, though doubtless the name will recur.....frequently.

sigh.

[SuuPRlim]

staking people in one off's is complete punt, doesn't matter if it's Ivey in a GUKPT @1.1 or one of Jason's hendom mob hero's (who he revers on here 6 times a week despite the fact they've spent 13 years losing $400k at poker and the height of there achievement really is that you need to use the scroll button to see there hendom mob page) in the $10k 6max at 1.5.

It's one tournament, and if you play decent, time everything well and get good cards you'll do well, if you don't then there is very little way you can win. So picking when you invest is pure gamble, James Keys has played a billion £1k's and never cashed but we all fancied a punt on him in the Aussie Mill's and he cashed for a mirrion, he could easily have cashed in another 10k at another time, just so happened it was this time. This is the cool thing about card games, anyone can win on any day, so if you can afford it, like the gamble, then punt away, not like it's not a much better investment than craps and blackjack and I never stop to think how -EV they are before I go play!

It's also cool in poker that when someone buys a piece in you, then they ask you to reciprocate, you often are happy to do so, so it's not taking the money out as such it's moving it round. If the person you are buying can actually win at poker tournaments then obviously this is a huge bonus, but them being a nice guy is way more > that for me.

I think the 30/70 after SB is a little misleading, I have on numerous occasions typed out posts in those threads saying to people you do realise that £56 does NOT = 10% it actually =7%, but decided against it because I do feel calling anything out on someones thread is a bit out of order. I'd like to see a small amount of investment from the person personally say for the DTD 500 if they sold 85% of the buyin at 1.25 they'd have like 40% of themselves for a £84 investment, which would be much more appealing to me.

I seem to remember a lot of people clubbing together on one of my threads once telling me "no-one was good value in a tournament at 1.4" yet people buy up these 30/70 things in no time at all which I was pretty tilted at and wanted to rant but refrained (all grown up now!)

All this comes in the time I'm trying to grim everyone out of my LAPC staking money (sorry guys !)

[dreenie]

Some very good points here -

Tbh, I have never thought about it like I'm selling @1.4 if I sell 100% of my action, mainly because I usually get staked my a long term deal/ or one friend who is trying to do me a favour.

I can see both sides, for me personally tho, I am not trying to rip anyone off, If I am short of money at the time I put up a thread to play some tournaments to try and get back into action. This is the only reason I would sell 100% (70/30). If I had a decent amount of money, but wanted to play a bigger schedule then I would put up a thread to sell X amount  to reduce variance.

I won a package for the ept, have never played a 5k buy in before, so sold a few %'s at spot rate, which I think is fair. I think u defo have to look at what tourney(s) it is for, if you have had zero results in the buy ins u want to play, then I think it's unfair putting a high mark up on ur selling price.

For me personally I feel terrible when I lose people's money, so unless it is a long term deal I have, will not keep asking if I lose a couple of times, but that's just how I feel about it.

I don't think anyone is getting ripped off, and agree, that if you don't want to buy a piece of someone, then u don't have to, if u think the mark up is too high, and u are trying to help them out so they sell of the package, then yes, I think you have a right to say something.

[semtex]

I read the thread on staking with must interest, after Jason mentioned my name had been mentioned in vain again on Blonde, I'm used to a few haters on Facebook but that comes with the territory, being a blondeite all be it on that posts irregularly I had hoped that people's responses would be fairly measured, and mostly they are... So that is point 1.. Point 2 I hope that Aaron isn't embittered by the fact that I removed he as a friend on Facebook, altho I have a fair few mostly, poker contacts, however I am systematically removing people who spam me or make defamatory comments.
Point 3 I value the advice of many of the blonde players such as chompy, tikay, vinnie and all of whom have given me good advice recently....not knowing much about the staking arena but as Jason H commented I had sold action, a full compliment in fact at 2:1 in my naivety. I then spoke to Cos again someone who's opinion I value highly and he informed me that most people sell at between 1:1.15 and 1:1.3, which seems not a great deal for the player imo, but if that is the Market who am I to argue. I spend most of my spare time away from poker and work helping our team members in blue blood and it's finally nice to find a good group of people who are serious about improving their poker and helping other players in the process... Poker certainly attracts a lot of nobs, but there are a lot of decent people too! I shall try and post a lot more on blonde because generally I think the discussions are pretty measured.... Thanks for your ears and gl at the tables!

[gatso]

Point 3 I value the advice of many of the blonde players such as chompy, tikay, vinnie and all of whom have given me good advice recently

that would certainly explain why someone may not think investing in you is great value

[Doobs]

I read almost every staking thread on this forum and have done for years and at times I think a player’s proposal represents value and if I have a few quid spare I get involved.  If I feel it isn’t value and I don’t want to invest, I ignore it. I take particular issue with Doobs here who for some reason feels he can publically decide, be judge and Jury and comment who is and who isn’t value... should we care about your opinion or just expect you to politely not get involved if you’re not interested? I wonder if you examine every item on eBay each day and flame the sale price and seller on their forum if they are selling their tut for a price you don’t like?...

I am pretty sure I have only ever commented once on a proposal on the staking board that I wasn't involved, and pretty much regretted it not long after.  Even then I was trying to be construcive, but realised it was never going to come across that way to some.  Hence I am not sure where you get the idea that I like to publically decide who is and who isn't value. 

I am not even sure why you have taken particular offence to me, and not the others who share the same view.  It seems you are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of, by naming and shaming just the one person.

Anyway better be off, Bobby1 made my point far better than I did. 

Good night.

Half way down page 4 sir... check what you said "its perfectly ok to criticise on a public forum"

I would rather those that weren't interested in the proposition just went and did something else like play a quiz in the lounge or something

I have checked what I said and I didn't say that, Ctrl c ctrl v works here.

"I think it should be perfectly OK to criticise a deal proposed on a public forum"

and then went on to say "The fact I am posting on this thread rather than the threads elsewhere is simply because I don't think it is particularly right to pick one particular thread". 

How this can be construed as me wanting to act as judge and jury on all these staking threads is beyond me. 

I was saying that I personally didn't want to criticise on individual threads there, but people should be willing to accept any reasonable criticism or discussion that appears after their post when they post on a public forum.

[Dubai]

All ive learnt is that everyones got an expected roi of well above 50%. Some poor bloke somewhere must be doing his brains for us all to keep carving it up

[semtex]

Point 3 I value the advice of many of the blonde players such as chompy, tikay, vinnie and all of whom have given me good advice recently

that would certainly explain why someone may not think investing in you is great value

Point 4 most blondeites have a good sense of humour!

[MANTIS01]

I was watching one of these antique shows, think it was Bargain Hunt, the one where the guy wears a dickie bow and says "we're orf to the auction". Anyway he had this toby jug he valued at £50-£80 which I thought was a terrible valuation because it was a fckin hideous looking thing, but after lots of frantic bidding it actually sold for £300. I thought wtf?