Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[JGill_DTD]

;

Pete are you not aware that after all the girls who work at Dtd, you are the nut worst spammer on Facebook. Channing does not even come close to you

all the girls?
I clearly need to up my spam game

[railtard1]

i havnt read every blonde thread ever assembled, not even close. But out of the many i have read, for intelligent responses, conflicting opinions, entertainment and lack of de-railment, this thread is the best i have ever read.
Staking is a grey area, and down to the individuals discretion, which is why a thread like this will have so many good points.

[mondatoo]

I would have no problem with someone posting in one of my staking threads and saying they thought I was offering a poor deal as long as it was constructive and not just pure flaming for the sake of it. I believe I've only ever done 70/30 threads when I've been busto so it was a necessity if I wanted to play the event, as a one off staking it probably wasn't good value for the backer and would put it in the punt category. I've been taking pieces a bit more regularly lately as I do think it's good to put back in when you've took out a few times like I have.

[pleno1]

glad i got Jamie to make this thread

[MANTIS01]

Firstly, the rate people sell at is seen as an ability indication and that’s why other players get their knickers in a twist about it. Pure ego thing rather than genuine worry for the welfare of random buyers. Such and such a player shouldn’t be selling at such and such a rate as they aren’t good enough to justify that mark up. In other words that player is over-estimating his ability. Good luck to everybody who fights the battle of getting poker players to not over-estimate their ability, because that battle is against 100% of poker players.

Secondly, quantifying whether a one off punt is worthwhile from a pure maths perspective is an awkward business. It’s hard to justify why people paid so much for that ugly toby jug when the expert said it wasn’t worth the money. Perhaps they were collectors and needed that one to complete the set or perhaps they just liked the colour. In the same vein somebody might pay over the odds for staking because of a profitable history with that player or simply because they woke up with a good feeling about that player’s chances. If you dreamt you won the lottery you might wake up and buy a ticket. If somebody at the counter says they are concerned about how –EV that coup is you would be like wtf who are you? i've got a feeling baby!

How do you quantify the value of your personal hunch to 0.1 or 0.2 of a %? Maths can’t be purely applied if there is any hint of romance in a coup and a one off stake in a big comp is absolutely a romantic notion. Market forces will dictate the success of a proposal and hence comment simply doesn't need to be made about perceived value from anybody uninvolved in the process. I think it's quite rude actually.

Thirdly and finally whenever there is talk of poker community it makes me rofl.

[pleno1]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

[skolsuper]

Firstly, the rate people sell at is seen as an ability indication and that’s why other players get their knickers in a twist about it. Pure ego thing rather than genuine worry for the welfare of random buyers. Such and such a player shouldn’t be selling at such and such a rate as they aren’t good enough to justify that mark up. In other words that player is over-estimating his ability. Good luck to everybody who fights the battle of getting poker players to not over-estimate their ability, because that battle is against 100% of poker players.

Secondly, quantifying whether a one off punt is worthwhile from a pure maths perspective is an awkward business. It’s hard to justify why people paid so much for that ugly toby jug when the expert said it wasn’t worth the money. Perhaps they were collectors and needed that one to complete the set or perhaps they just liked the colour. In the same vein somebody might pay over the odds for staking because of a profitable history with that player or simply because they woke up with a good feeling about that player’s chances. If you dreamt you won the lottery you might wake up and buy a ticket. If somebody at the counter says they are concerned about how –EV that coup is you would be like wtf who are you? i've got a feeling baby!

How do you quantify the value of your personal hunch to 0.1 or 0.2 of a %? Maths can’t be purely applied if there is any hint of romance in a coup and a one off stake in a big comp is absolutely a romantic notion. Market forces will dictate the success of a proposal and hence comment simply doesn't need to be made about perceived value from anybody uninvolved in the process. I think it's quite rude actually.

Thirdly and finally whenever there is talk of poker community it makes me rofl.

Very good post, only disagree on one point, I think feedback is a part of the pricing process, and blonde's staking forum is the obvious place for it. Think of it as like the programme watchdog calling out people selling dodgy antiques, yeah the buyers are fine with it and the antiques look the same, which is all that really matters if they're being bought for their aesthetic value, but it's still not on.

[Ironside]

I staked a guy from Newcastle Poker forum 7 months ago. He stopped the deal (fair doos) and never sent the money back, I've received dribs and drabs of the money but owed me over $400 for over 7 months now although promising t pay me and saying that he is skint.

He is now staked by the head on Newcastle Poker Forum, is up over £2k and still hasn't paid me back (continuing to tell me he is skint) he has also won the Newcastle Poker championship (yearly event) and not paid me back.

How do I go on from here???

I've posted on his facebook (he removed the message from his wall straight away) and he always repsponds politely to PM's, but still no $

I've spent so many hours chasing this up, obv dont get interest on the money either!

Link to his blog - http://www.newcastlepoker.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300925#post300925  which I can't post on as banned from NPF, lolsigh


His response:

"i cant cash out till the 6 month is over if i wasnt gettin staked i wouldnt be playin as have no money im working for 2 weeks from sunday and gettin paid at the end ov it cash in hand and will be able to pay soon as i do as im gettin 400 a week "

My response:

xxxxxxxxxx has to pay me
if hes going to stake u
i should have first right to staking you if you owe me money"

sorry i dont get this but if you was staking him and he lost and the staking finished why would he owe you money or was it unused stake?

or does this make up mean if you are in make up when the staking finished you owe the staker the make up  inwhich case what was the point in getting staked in first place


its confusing to me

[pleno1]

i stake him for NL25, I send $1k..

2 weeks later he says that he has no time for poker anymore. He is small profit, so starts to withdraw. 7-9 months later I haven't received the money he has lost.

2 months ago he starts new staking deal where he can't withdraw his winnings for 6 months!

Means I don't get paid for 15 months whilst new staker gets profits in the mean time!

[Simon Galloway]

Not to de-rail, too far (ok , it is still staking..) but Stars don't have a 6month time frame...  It is imposed on the new staking agreement, your move is to contact the new backer, explain the situation, provide your proof of entitlement, agree a settlement with him, and move on.

[pleno1]

nono, the new staker doesn't let him withdraw any profits for 6 months as it allows the stake to grow and him play higher or wte.

[smashedagain]

;

Pete are you not aware that after all the girls who work at Dtd, you are the nut worst spammer on Facebook. Channing does not even come close to you

all the girls?
I clearly need to up my spam game

are you not Gillian?

[Simon Galloway]

nono, the new staker doesn't let him withdraw any profits for 6 months as it allows the stake to grow and him play higher or wte.

If the new staker isnt a complete schmuck... he will put this right for you out of the horse's profits. 

If another staker came to me with documented evidence of a wrong-doing by one of my current horses, I would put it right, or put a plan in place to put it right, or drop the horse.

[smashedagain]

nono, the new staker doesn't let him withdraw any profits for 6 months as it allows the stake to grow and him play higher or wte.

sounds like you may be getting had over patrick. something i am pretty sure everyone of the guys who are charging 70/30 would never do.

I can see i am in the vast minority here but even tho i agree with an awful lot of what is said i will continue to amuse everyone  to try and keep some balance in the thread.

[FUN4FRASER]

Having recently taken a stake in somebody in the deepstack £560 on 70/30 basis I feel I can offer my viewpoint .With the tournament offering so much value I was looking to add a few more horses/percentages so as to hopefully get a return. The guy in question was Greg ( Junior ) with whom I agreed a 70/30 deal (after stakeback) . The percentage I finally agreed with Greg is not relevant, but for easier maths lets assume I invested 100 % (ie £560) and lets also assume he got in the money and cashed for £10,560 ,Our agreement was simple ..I get my stake back (£560)  we then split the 10k ...7k for me and 3 k for him . Simple maths then, Greg is working for 30% of any profit (after my stake back) or as some might say he is free rolling...or is he ? All Ive done is put up the money and agreed the deal, Greg has to drive to the venue(petrol) and do the grind for 2 full days, granted if he gets a major bink its seriously good money  but we all know in a field of 650ish runners major binks are few and far between. The question I would ask any backer is what is an acceptable % for somebody to play for ? Well the first thing to consider is have they got the game to go deep ? Are they going to pay you should they get in the money ? ( as there is no point agreeing with somebody to play /freeroll for 15/20 % if they have no intention of paying you), and the final thing is that the player themselves need the motivation to play so there has to be a decent % reward should he cash( granted you could reduce the % in a bigger buy in tournaments ).Taking these points into consideration,plus the fact Ive known Greg for some years ,respect his game ,admire the way he conducts himself as a person, and the fact I know 100% he will uphold the deal should he cash we shook hands .This post is not about sticking up for a Greg( he can do that himself) , its to make people aware I was more than happy to proceed (eyes wide open) on a 70/30 deal. Its all about trying to be fair and to agree on a figure based on the facts that works for both parties.

A recent example of this was when I was in Galway a couple of weeks ago. I bought in for 770 euros for the UKIPT main event but by the time I had taken into account hotel,flights & taxis(not including food and drink) it was costing me 1250 so effectively with these costs the tournament is standing me at 1.5 which is certainly -EV. A couple of mates in the UK then ask me for a % at 1.25ish and I explain my overheads and suggest its not value for them to buy at 1.5 and its certainly not value for me to sell @1.25 I explained the reasons why to which they totally understood.In the end I concluded it was either better to keep it all myself or swop a % with somebody over there.(By the way Ireland is so fkin expensive and people wanting to play the next UKIPTS in Dublin and Cork should consider the overhead costs) ....Anyway I digress slightly but my point is that its horses for courses and there are more factors to consider when both being a staker or a stakee  when negotiating a deal than just  "the price"

Dubai ,Action man and others  are correct in their statements about the prices being wrong sometimes purely based on mathematics and they are well intentioned in their observations( although a tad direct and" to the point ") but its very important for the "poker community" (which 100% exists ) that these points are raised so as to make people aware of the full facts when entering into an agreement and of course to help stimulate healthy debate, so well done them .

What we dont want to do is stop people from posting staking requests( or any other posts) on here for fear of being ridiculed or flamed etc , so by making more helpful & constructive replys this hopefully wont happen.

As regards which person can command which rate, well market forces will dictate that ! People will buy or sell mainly based on the factors highlighted above !

Peace x