Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[outragous76]

selling at 80-20= ?

isn't that more the norm these days?

The only thing is, is somebody going to be motivated to grind a 12bb stack when they are only going to get 20% of a cash? Like sitting there for 2 days close to the bubble you're probably going to make ICM mistakes around the bubble because you need a stack to justify any kind of hourly.

I think generally anybody who plays a tournament should have at least 35% of themselves. But of course who am I to say how motivated somebody is going to be.

Yeh I mean, even with 70/30s saying Joe Bloggs ROI in the £500 deepstack is 25%, that means he's going to make on average £125 everytime he plays it, and say he play's it for 6 hours on average. If he's only getting 20/30% of the profits he's making £25 or £37.50 everytime. Across 6 hours that's an hourly of £4-£6....

Hourly is irrelevant to the stakees reason for wanting to play.

People just want to play the event and they probably believe they arent the value in the field (or moreso there is value in the field). Most of these people will have jobs etc and just fancy playing etc

People who put a 70/30 thread up arent doing it because they think its a shrewd way of getting 1.4. Id say 95% havent even thougth about the fact they are getting a mark up.

As for PLeno's point - i think its quite important. If you dont have enough of yourself there will come a point where you could make a decision for the wrong reasons.  That being said, as most people are saying they punt on these type of stakes, then maybe it would never be the wrong decision as  both sides want to win not min cash.

[EvilPie]

selling at 80-20= ?

isn't that more the norm these days?

The only thing is, is somebody going to be motivated to grind a 12bb stack when they are only going to get 20% of a cash? Like sitting there for 2 days close to the bubble you're probably going to make ICM mistakes around the bubble because you need a stack to justify any kind of hourly.

I think generally anybody who plays a tournament should have at least 35% of themselves. But of course who am I to say how motivated somebody is going to be.

Yeh I mean, even with 70/30s saying Joe Bloggs ROI in the £500 deepstack is 25%, that means he's going to make on average £125 everytime he plays it, and say he play's it for 6 hours on average. If he's only getting 20/30% of the profits he's making £25 or £37.50 everytime. Across 6 hours that's an hourly of £4-£6....

How is that relevant in a once per month tournament?

It's clearly just a punt so hourly rates mean absolutely nothing whatsoever.

[Graham C]

So how would a well worded proposal for a tourney be written with fairness to all parties.

Say I wanted to play the £500. Clearly I need to get something out of it but it's out of my bankroll.  Are we saying that ideally I'd buy 50% of the stake and put the rest up for sale ?  So for the £500 I'd ask for £250 staking (I know rake's not listed here) and offer to split winnings 50/50 or 70/30 after stake has been returned?  What would be a good example?   I'm not doing it, just curious.

[EvilPie]

From a personal point of view I've both sold %s and bought %s.

If I sell it's only ever at 1:1 and I try to keep at least 50% of myself. I just think that people will know I'm taking it seriously if I've put in a chunk myself.

As for staking others I usually just stake people that I like. I'm not interested in the actual 'value' of a stake. I fully understand what the value is but I really don't care.

Obviously there would come a point where it would take the piss in which case I wouldn't buy any.

As for the recent £500 staking thread's the only one I've gone for was Tom's. If you want to look at it long term I think Tom's probably worth 1:1 against that field so it's costing me about £17 every time I stake him.

If I can help a friend play a comp that he loves and also give both of us a chance of winning a few quid for £17 then I'll take it once a month.

[jakally]

Great subject for a thread Jamie, and well done / UL on the weekend.

[mondatoo]

It gets mentioned quite often but I'm not sure there are many people, if at all, who need staking to play a £500/1k comp but at the same time aren't motivated to win 30% of high 5 figs. I think the MC thread I put up was good value and all the rest were shite value.

[RED-DOG]

I'm kind of struggling to understand how selling at 70/30 in an open and honest fashion is praying on the naive and should be banned,  but inducing a weak inexperienced player to put all his money into the pot when you have the nuts is something to be applauded

[BulldozerD]

Personally I would just avoid the ones that are stated in 70/30 terms etc and think it would be easier for universal understanding and comparability if all staking proposals were stated in terms of mark up and amount up for sale ie: 50% available at 1.1 or whatever.

I'd also be more comfortable if the stakee had personal money at stake, so doesn't sell 100%, but realise that may not always be practical depending on circumstances. If I get staked I'd always want at least 40-50% of myself or I don't think I would bother.

I realise I dont stake that often but just how I see it

[mondatoo]

I thought it was more open to say I'm selling 100% for 70/30 split thus not putting any money up myself then to say I'm selling 70% @ 1.42.... as if to try and avoid the fact that I'm not putting any money up.

[pleno1]

Personally I would just avoid the ones that are stated in 70/30 terms etc and think it would be easier for universal understanding and comparability if all staking proposals were stated in terms of mark up and amount up for sale ie: 50% available at 1.1 or whatever.

I'd also be more comfortable if the stakee had personal money at stake, so doesn't sell 100%, but realise that may not always be practical depending on circumstances. If I get staked I'd always want at least 40-50% of myself or I don't think I would bother.

I realise I dont stake that often but just how I see it

Good post.

I'm kind of struggling to understand how selling at 70/30 in an open and honest fashion is praying on the naive and should be banned,  but inducing a weak inexperienced player to put all his money into the pot when you have the nuts is something to be applauded

Both of these are just not even close. The threads are very honest, not intentionally misleader or any incorrect information, like I stated above, the first time I ever sold I did exactly the same thing. If Blonde eductaed stakees and stakers and made it a rule that everybody had to say X% at 1.x it would make things alot eaiser for everybody and could help us decide at how much mark up to sell.

[jakally]

There are essentially two types of stakees...........

- people who want to take a punt in a tourney, but aren't rolled for it, and aren't necessarily big winners at that level. (Many of these have good game, but cannot reasonably argue that they will crush that level).
- people who are proven winning players, who want to sell some, to reduce variance.

I like to see the first group put some of the cash up themselves, and sell the rest at 1:1.
Always think it comes across better if someone is backing themselves to some extent, even if they have a limited roll.

The second group (Keys, Dubai, Goulder....) have a greater right to charge what they think they are worth, as they have proven that they can deliver in a similar situation.

As to Tom's point, I think almost all staking requests on BP are presented with honest and fair intent, and there is no real need to regulate / standardise...... it's a forum, and is self regulating, in that if someone is trying to pull a fast one, there are enough 'policemen' on here to get stuck in.

[EvilPie]

Personally I would just avoid the ones that are stated in 70/30 terms etc and think it would be easier for universal understanding and comparability if all staking proposals were stated in terms of mark up and amount up for sale ie: 50% available at 1.1 or whatever.

I'd also be more comfortable if the stakee had personal money at stake, so doesn't sell 100%, but realise that may not always be practical depending on circumstances. If I get staked I'd always want at least 40-50% of myself or I don't think I would bother.

I realise I dont stake that often but just how I see it

In what way doesn't the stakee have personal money at stake? All the people who sold at 70/30 at DTD this weekend were playing for around £25k in their own pocket.

How isn't that personal?

[cambridgealex]

There are essentially two types of stakees...........

- people who want to take a punt in a tourney, but aren't rolled for it, and aren't necessarily big winners at that level. (Many of these have good game, but cannot reasonably argue that they will crush that level).
- people who are proven winning players, who want to sell some, to reduce variance.

I like to see the first group put some of the cash up themselves, and sell the rest at 1:1.
Always think it comes across better if someone is backing themselves to some extent, even if they have a limited roll.

The second group (Keys, Dubai, Goulder....) have a greater right to charge what they think they are worth, as they have proven that they can deliver in a similar situation.

As to Tom's point, I think almost all staking requests on BP are presented with honest and fair intent, and there is no real need to regulate / standardise...... it's a forum, and is self regulating, in that if someone is trying to pull a fast one, there are enough 'policemen' on here to get stuck in.

[X] Made it

WAL

[cambridgealex]

Personally I would just avoid the ones that are stated in 70/30 terms etc and think it would be easier for universal understanding and comparability if all staking proposals were stated in terms of mark up and amount up for sale ie: 50% available at 1.1 or whatever.

I'd also be more comfortable if the stakee had personal money at stake, so doesn't sell 100%, but realise that may not always be practical depending on circumstances. If I get staked I'd always want at least 40-50% of myself or I don't think I would bother.

I realise I dont stake that often but just how I see it

In what way doesn't the stakee have personal money at stake? All the people who sold at 70/30 at DTD this weekend were playing for around £25k in their own pocket.

How isn't that personal?

cos they're freerolling the whole event

[Simon Galloway]

Longer term staking makes more sense to a backer, rather than one-off punts.  As for people not having enough of themselves to care, or to make decisions for the wrong reason:  If 20% of the tourny isn't worth their while, don't ask for 80/20 on a staking thread!!  If you ask for 80/20 on a thread and sell out, that's the best result possible?  Don't turn up at the venue and go "meh, not worth my while, may as well jam it in."  Price up your staking thread so it is worth your while and then go and play it properly.

If I saw a player that I thought "hmm he will prolly do 70/30 for 100% and then the dirttty little pr1ck will prolly swap a few %s at the venue" then I just don't go anywhere taking a piece.