Impartial opinions wanted on DTD TD(Danniel) decision/150 DS 19/05/2012

[Cotter1]

Should the other player win the pot though?

If his cards had been mucked and not presented in view to the rest of the table, is his hand not dead also?

[LB44]

Hand is dead. Dealer error unfortunatly. Sorry mate

[JK]

Everyone is right in saying its dead.

The rules state that is your job to indentify that you have the correct amount of cards in your hand. Now I know this sounds retarded, but you'd know straight away if you have 1 card, therefore you should know straight away if you have 3 or more.

Its unfortunate that this has happened to you in your first deepstack, but unfortunately its the correct ruling

[wallie]

very unfortunate for you. the two cards were clearly stuck perfectly together. and like you say you played  . jamie's very lucky to be in the position he is now having basically bluffed all his chips off

[Poker_Monkey]

Yep hands dead simple as and as to the other players hand not being turned to win the chips it's a default pot win as the 3 card hand never happened and over two moves had happened so the bord is live. Ul m8 but it's a players job to look after there hand and to know how many cards they have

[BangBang]

Having three cards would clearly give you an unfair advantage, so the hand should be declared dead...

[Cotter1]

Yep hands dead simple as and as to the other players hand not being turned to win the chips it's a default pot win as the 3 card hand never happened and over two moves had happened so the bord is live. Ul m8 but it's a players job to look after there hand and to know how many cards they have

How do we know the other player only had two cards if he chucked them in the muck?

As no hand was declared, i.e. one mucked and one invalid, I think the whole hand was dead and everyone's chips should be returned as near as possible obs.

[Poker_Monkey]

Yep hands dead simple as and as to the other players hand not being turned to win the chips it's a default pot win as the 3 card hand never happened and over two moves had happened so the bord is live. Ul m8 but it's a players job to look after there hand and to know how many cards they have

How do we know the other player only had two cards if he chucked them in the muck?

As no hand was declared, i.e. one mucked and one invalid, I think the whole hand was dead and everyone's chips should be returned as near as possible obs.

Well if that's the way you see it then cool but I can only call from what I have read hear and put it use I would from what I have Sean happen in the past thats all

[cambridgealex]

I think where rulings are concerned, as a general rule, players involved find it difficult to look at the situation completely impartially, logically and more importantly, from the point of view of the TD.

Almost everything in your OP is irrelevant to the situation.

"Pre hand history: Jamie Holland came to table as chip leader, after few levels his stack went down from something like 300k to 50k or so with most of that coming my way. Later he recovered to 135k ish. We played many hands against each other last 2 levels. In last level he clearly play3ed for double up or bust, few huge overbets in hands leading to the last one.

Dealer: Although until that dealer came to the table, level of dealers has been excellent all night, this particular dealer looked 'disinterested and fed up' with his job role at  best. I believe he dealt last 2 levels at least and more or less every single hand had isomeking of iissues - cards has been sticking to his fingers, they had been pushed to wrong people, misdealt etc.

Effective stacks: Mine 240k ish, Jamie's 135k ish. 5 minutes before end of play.
Hand: Preflop, flop, turn actions ARE NOT IMPORTANT. 2 way pot on the river. Board reads I believe 67735(in no particular order), rainbow (although there was flush draw possible on the turn). Pot is relatively small, about 50k on 2000/4000 blinds. I check, Jamie again pushes all in. I assume i have Q4 for straight/missed flush and more than confident I am ahead due to previous way Jamie played. After some deliberation I call Jamie's all in of 126k and almost instantly got congratulated on good call. Even now I have no idea what he had as I am not sure if his hand even had been revealed.

After hand: I flip Q4 as any other hand. After minute or so dealer wakes up from his dreaming/sleep mode and starts counting Jamie's chips or pushing put etc. Then from somewhere comes a cry that my hand has 3 cards. TD is called.

My line of play really cannot represent nothing else than Q4 of diamonds. Any sugestion otherwise would be really improbable - i would need to be mentally retarded to call 126k bet after investing 20k in the pot whilst knowing I had 3 cards. Although not many of you saw me recently at DTD, but I am not novice in poker."

It's all irrelevant to the ruling, the only relevant bit is that you had three cards, therefore your hand has to be dead and you should be awarded 0% of the pot. Any other ruling would mean that players who had been dealt 3 cards could keep quiet and freeroll the whole hand - if they got called down they could just claim they didn't know and get half the pot back. Now I know you'll retort with "but I didn't know I had three cards", but how is a TD meant to judge who is telling the truth there? The rules are there to prevent angleshooting of this nature being possible and it is a good and fair rule - but on this occassion it's extremely unlucky for you, but it's the correct rule nonetheless.

[AndrewT]

Should the other player win the pot though?

If his cards had been mucked and not presented in view to the rest of the table, is his hand not dead also?

Good point here.

If other player has already mucked his hand without tabling it at the point the 3 cards are discovered, the pot has no owner and surely chips should come out of play?

[Cotter1]

Yep hands dead simple as and as to the other players hand not being turned to win the chips it's a default pot win as the 3 card hand never happened and over two moves had happened so the bord is live. Ul m8 but it's a players job to look after there hand and to know how many cards they have

How do we know the other player only had two cards if he chucked them in the muck?

As no hand was declared, i.e. one mucked and one invalid, I think the whole hand was dead and everyone's chips should be returned as near as possible obs.

Well if that's the way you see it then cool but I can only call from what I have read hear and put it use I would from what I have Sean happen in the past thats all

Just for the record, I don't know either player and am just commenting as an interested observer.

I also have no idea what the actual ruling is especially as so much action has taken place.

This situation meant that all players were affected as the burn cards and flop were not as they should have been etc.

For me that means every player at the table was impacted and therefor no one player should profit from the outcome.

Give everyone there chips back and the 'offending' player has to sit out for a round maybe?

[outragous76]

If hero was in the bb, and only realises when 3 people have acted and then he looks, is his hand dead?

[wallie]

jamie didn't muck his cards anyway. he showed aj off

[Poker_Monkey]

jamie didn't muck his cards anyway. he showed aj off

Ahhhhh the plot thinkens

[Cotter1]

Yes, now makes it a very different situation.

Lots of action, hand plays out, 3 card hand dead, opponent shows hand, ruling correct.