Poll: Your views required please on Re-entry tournaments

[AndrewT]

3) In my opinion they often let people re-enter for too long at DTD. You shouldn't be re-entering 6 hours after the comp starts. Stop re-entering when the starting stack is 40bb or more. After that it becomes more of a "rebuy" feel where people can successfully keep reentering to build a stack. 20bb re-entry's are not bad-beat insurance, they're a different kind of comp.

Totaly agree with this - IMO the whole point of a re-entry is so that you get a decent chance of some play, and aren't left scratching your balls after 10 mins. I think re-entries should be no more than 2 hours - if you've fired all the bullets you're able to after that time then it's just not your day.

Re-entry has to be available to the end of late reg imo.

Absolutely - implicit in my post was that the super late reg is ridic as well. If you don't think many people will turn up until 5 hours after the tourney start time, then maybe you've set the start time wrong.

[Dave 1961]

Dave 1961 can you quantify this substantial feedback from players in favour? Have you got results from a poll that you can publish for eg?

In our particular poll a lot of players are voting in favour of no re-entry. Slightly more are voting for re-entry but I don't see this as substantial feedback in favour of such a change. In fact our forum poll prob expresses the views of the better players along with venue supporters. So I would be genuinely interested in the results if you were to poll every runner in your upcoming festival. I think an average player votes against re-entry into big tournaments. If that isn't the case there are a lot of average players with big bankrolls out there imo. Think the re-entry format is the desire of venues and the small % of better players rather than 95% of average players, the value players. Anyway a few questions for this debate...

a) If most players love the prizepool being boosted by re-entry why limit re-entry?

b) Ref the expenses. Travelling to one multi-day comp is -Ev compared to loading up 6 comps at home. Does the concept of re-entry now make it a +Ev coup for the average player? In fact better players being able to re-enter makes the situation even worse doesn't it?

c) If we stake a horse into a big comp and he goes on to take it down under his own steam on a personal second bullet do we feel fine about it? Think I would feel sore seeing him fistpump the trophy and the big comedy cheque, but in actual fact his second bullet has nothing to do with me or the original stake right?

d) Is cash poker a completely different game? Think eg rugby union and hungy hippos are completely different games.

Hi

We run tours across Europe and the US. Our staff poll players on the ground to gauge their reaction to various events, structures and buy-ins. The players come from over twenty countries and we feel that this gives a more balanced viewpoint based on the nationality of most events.

[MANTIS01]

Dave 1961 can you quantify this substantial feedback from players in favour? Have you got results from a poll that you can publish for eg?

In our particular poll a lot of players are voting in favour of no re-entry. Slightly more are voting for re-entry but I don't see this as substantial feedback in favour of such a change. In fact our forum poll prob expresses the views of the better players along with venue supporters. So I would be genuinely interested in the results if you were to poll every runner in your upcoming festival. I think an average player votes against re-entry into big tournaments. If that isn't the case there are a lot of average players with big bankrolls out there imo. Think the re-entry format is the desire of venues and the small % of better players rather than 95% of average players, the value players. Anyway a few questions for this debate...

a) If most players love the prizepool being boosted by re-entry why limit re-entry?

b) Ref the expenses. Travelling to one multi-day comp is -Ev compared to loading up 6 comps at home. Does the concept of re-entry now make it a +Ev coup for the average player? In fact better players being able to re-enter makes the situation even worse doesn't it?

c) If we stake a horse into a big comp and he goes on to take it down under his own steam on a personal second bullet do we feel fine about it? Think I would feel sore seeing him fistpump the trophy and the big comedy cheque, but in actual fact his second bullet has nothing to do with me or the original stake right?

d) Is cash poker a completely different game? Think eg rugby union and hungy hippos are completely different games.

Hi

We run tours across Europe and the US. Our staff poll players on the ground to gauge their reaction to various events, structures and buy-ins. The players come from over twenty countries and we feel that this gives a more balanced viewpoint based on the nationality of most events.

How do you formally record that data Dave? You say your staff poll players so can you publish the results of those polls? If you can't then it's just casual convos and I wouldn't be so confident that quantifies as substantial or indeed accurate feedback.

[Dave 1961]

Hi

I understand your concern but we do not publish any of our client data as we believe the research helps shape our future investment and we want to try and stay ahead of the competition. We will be launching two new services as a result of the research and will be investing over 100k Euros into Prague this year so we listen to what the players say and try and act on it. In the U/K we have limited exposure mostly because DTD has the market sewn up and we already work with Genting on that tour. We would always welcome any player input and anyone who wants to contact us and assist in improving any tour experience is welcome. In this economic environment all input is gratefully accepted

Dave

[MANTIS01]

Hi

I understand your concern but we do not publish any of our client data as we believe the research helps shape our future investment and we want to try and stay ahead of the competition. We will be launching two new services as a result of the research and will be investing over 100k Euros into Prague this year so we listen to what the players say and try and act on it. In the U/K we have limited exposure mostly because DTD has the market sewn up and we already work with Genting on that tour. We would always welcome any player input and anyone who wants to contact us and assist in improving any tour experience is welcome. In this economic environment all input is gratefully accepted

Dave

Sweet Dave thanks for your help. You said after all your staff had canvassed opinion from all your players there was substantial feedback in favour of re-entry. If you do want to stay ahead of the competition I wouldn't have revealed the results of your market research on a public forum in the first place but there you go.

[kinboshi]

I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out.

You'll see repechage in many events at the Olympics, such as the rowing, judo, wrestling and taekwondo, and in the sailing (I think).  That's similar to re-entering after being knocked-out as it's a second chance at getting through to the later stages of the event.

[smashedagain]

I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out.

You'll see repechage in many events at the Olympics, such as the rowing, judo, wrestling and taekwondo, and in the sailing (I think).  That's similar to re-entering after being knocked-out as it's a second chance at getting through to the later stages of the event.

Sometimes you are so smart when I read your posts a little sick comes up in my mouth.  You have a smart answer for everything. Next time I am in court you can come with me. You are ten times better than my brief

[kinboshi]

I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out.

You'll see repechage in many events at the Olympics, such as the rowing, judo, wrestling and taekwondo, and in the sailing (I think).  That's similar to re-entering after being knocked-out as it's a second chance at getting through to the later stages of the event.

Sometimes you are so smart when I read your posts a little sick comes up in my mouth.  You have a smart answer for everything. Next time I am in court you can come with me. You are ten times better than my brief

  Bet he gets paid 10 times more than me though

[david3103]

I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out.

You'll see repechage in many events at the Olympics, such as the rowing, judo, wrestling and taekwondo, and in the sailing (I think).  That's similar to re-entering after being knocked-out as it's a second chance at getting through to the later stages of the event.

Sometimes you are so smart when I read your posts a little sick comes up in my mouth.  You have a smart answer for everything. Next time I am in court you can come with me. You are ten times better than my brief

  Bet he gets paid 10 times more than me though

and probably 10 times more often

[smashedagain]

I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out.

You'll see repechage in many events at the Olympics, such as the rowing, judo, wrestling and taekwondo, and in the sailing (I think).  That's similar to re-entering after being knocked-out as it's a second chance at getting through to the later stages of the event.

Sometimes you are so smart when I read your posts a little sick comes up in my mouth.  You have a smart answer for everything. Next time I am in court you can come with me. You are ten times better than my brief

  Bet he gets paid 10 times more than me though

When he eventually gets it he probably is

[luckyblind]

A topic that is close to my heart at the moment

Firstly on the rare occasions that I get to play a live tournament I am greatly in favour of the re-entry option. Due to where I live any tournament I play I am going to be a travelling player and being able to re-enter on the occasions I bust early is must if I am going to make the effort to travel.

I am a believer that starting a tournament late is giving up EV as when the stacks are deeper compared to the blinds I think a better player has more of an edge. Therefore I think a re-entry a few levels in has a slightly lower EV but factor in the travel costs being split between what is effectively two different tournaments and it levels it out somewhat.

Initially from a business point of view I was a little sceptical of re-entry tournaments but once I understood them properly and what the true effects and demands for players are I was quick to implement them in every event we are involved in.

In the early days of re-entry tournaments I think there was a lot of misconceptions about how they would affect the play and who they really benefit. In my personal opinion I am 100% sure that it does not give anyone a specific advantage in an individual tournament. If anybody is playing a re-entry in the same way as a re-buy they are giving up EV to the rest of the field. In a traditional re-buy tournament there is definitely an advantage to playing loose and trying to gain chips. If you lose your chips you are still on the same table and have a chance to win your chips back and also the payout structures are different with a min cash usually being considerably more in a re-buy.

When you use the re-entry option you are effectively playing a second tournament and should not take the first bullet into account when calculating your roi on this tournament. A lot of people who played our deepstack this February and re-entered suddenly realised this when approaching the bubble and seeing that the min cash was only money back if they had re-entered. Our policy on payouts is that a min cash is around double the initial buy in.

Like Dave has mentioned above we also extensively canvassed our player base before making the decision to bring in re-entries and it was an almost unanimous "yes" from them. Caveat here being that most players who play the tournaments we are involved in are travelling players so they are more than likely to see the benefits of playing a "second tournament" for the same set of exes. At a recent GUKPT before re-entries were introduced 100% of the players I spoke to after busting would have re-entered if it was an option. 70% of players who busted Day 1A of our Deepstack in Dublin re-entered.

From an organisers point of view it does bump up the prize pools and encourage more players to travel but can be at some cost to them in certain situations. I would imagine in a venue like DTD where players might travel but not stay overnight it would have a negative impact on their cash games as players might normally jump into them after an early exit. This loss of revenue is also exaggerated by the fact that most tournaments run at break even or a loss unless the reg fee is over £50/€50 for a multi day event. Bigger loss-making tournament + smaller cash game revenue is not a good business model! For our Dublin events this not so much of a concern as players who re-enter are less likely to check out early and jump on a plane home so we have more of a chance of getting them into a cash game. Similar applies to GUKPT where a lot of the player base may stay overnight.

The poll results are interesting but I feel they have little meaning unless the voters are separated into specific categories or there is more than one poll taking into account the different tournaments/festivals on offer to players.

Non scientific point - people are generally quick to point out things they do not like and slow to comment on the good things. Since we have introduced re-entries no-one has come up to me asked me to change it back yet many have said how much they like it. Some, like Da Bookie, have said they themselves would not use the option often but like they way the prizepools are bigger because of it. (caveat: this does not include forum posters who have never played our events before).

I also think that in the long run players who are losing will go bust quicker than normal as they are effectively going to get in more tournaments than before. They are also more likely to take a re-entry as you would assume that bad players bust out earlier on average than good ones

[kinboshi]

At a recent GUKPT before re-entries were introduced 100% of the players I spoke to after busting would have re-entered if it was an option

Just for clarity, how many did you ask, and how many of those had satellited in?

[MANTIS01]

I would imagine in a venue like DTD where players might travel but not stay overnight it would have a negative impact on their cash games as players might normally jump into them after an early exit. This loss of revenue is also exaggerated by the fact that most tournaments run at break even or a loss unless the reg fee is over £50/€50 for a multi day event. Bigger loss-making tournament + smaller cash game revenue is not a good business model!

Why do you think DTD are making the mistake of implementing poor business models within their organisation?

At a recent GUKPT before re-entries were introduced 100% of the players I spoke to after busting would have re-entered if it was an option

The way you conduct market research and collate data needs improvement. If you ask somebody if they want to get back into a game after busting, especially when they can't actually commit to their answer, your results will be massively skewed. Hence why 100% said yes. Unless you really do believe 100% of all players favour re-entry you can see how inaccurate your polling method is. Yet you are using this data to add weight to your arguement whilst dimissing our far more balanced poll as having 'little meaning'.

[smashedagain]

Lol. Yeah kick a guy in the bollox and ask him if he wants another

[luckyblind]

I would imagine in a venue like DTD where players might travel but not stay overnight it would have a negative impact on their cash games as players might normally jump into them after an early exit. This loss of revenue is also exaggerated by the fact that most tournaments run at break even or a loss unless the reg fee is over £50/€50 for a multi day event. Bigger loss-making tournament + smaller cash game revenue is not a good business model!

Why do you think DTD are making the mistake of implementing poor business models within their organisation?

At a recent GUKPT before re-entries were introduced 100% of the players I spoke to after busting would have re-entered if it was an option

The way you conduct market research and collate data needs improvement. If you ask somebody if they want to get back into a game after busting, especially when they can't actually commit to their answer, your results will be massively skewed. Hence why 100% said yes. Unless you really do believe 100% of all players favour re-entry you can see how inaccurate your polling method is. Yet you are using this data to add weight to your arguement whilst dimissing our far more balanced poll as having 'little meaning'.

DTD are not necessary making a mistake, I merely pointed out a possible downside for a poker room offering re-entries. Certainly from experience in running tournaments I know that unless you get players into cash games at a tournament you are not going to make any money. Not at sub £50 reg fees anyway. Alex's comment about cash games being affected would imply to me that this is the case. I have only had time to go DTD once (for one of the 150 deepstack jobbies) and whilst I was very impressed with the place I was surprised at the low numbers playing cash considering the amount of players in the tournaments.

Re: The GUKPT comment, this was one of many occasions where I have spoken to players. It was only a small sample but with the players concerned I am pretty sure that their answers were valid. I took almost a year of evaluating direct player feedback from our events and others as well monitoring forum feedback before adding them to our events.

This poll means a lot if all the players who have answered are part of the target market of the person creating the poll. It may do but I doubt it. One of the best things about Blonde is that it attracts a wide spectrum of poker players.