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Author Topic: Live Streams - Hole cards or not?  (Read 13189 times)
Yian
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2012, 02:17:31 PM »

Surprised to read a couple posts to say otherwise but still pretty sure that a hefty majority of viewers would want hole cards for sure. I think a lot of people would tune out without hole cards especially when commentary is normally dull inaccurate babbling about poker, bad strategy theories and constant drops about their own poker career, what they once did and who they used to know (DTD and WSOP coverage excluded).

Why do we want people to keep watching these streams? Because the allure of not only the money and glory advertised but the apparent minimal feeling of fame by being on a live streamed final table is enough to entice their narcissistic personality needs. More people wanting to take their shot is good for the game, right?

So keep the hole cards display but do everything to defend the integrity of the game. Although it's not nice to have your phone taken off you, do this and maybe disable the wifi access to players in the club for the duration of the final table. I suppose there is still a way around this getting a mate from home texting a mate on the rail to feed the info to the participant but increasing the hurdles should reduce the likeliness of it. At DTD the rail is pretty intimate surrounding the FT; maybe they will reconsider the positioning of the feature table where the railers can't be so close to the action. I seem to remember some controversy about alleged signalling from a railer who saw Greek Jack's hole cards on the 'chip leader' FT, so some distance needs to be increased.

I don't think much can be done about players speaking on the breaks unless the club allocates separate areas for FT players and the rest of the club. Complete isolation may be ott Truman Show style. When the information is available to all and if so it's within their right to take full advantage, I would, but people are right in saying that the information is very little over a FT that it can't be utilised all that well. The reason I am personally adamant about players not being able to use the information is because it does add a dimension to the game that wouldn't otherwise be there in a game of poker; where you would play taking into account your perceived image and now you do not know what people know and what they do not know creating an unnatural decision making process. And if there is a live streamed table while there are still more tables in play in the same tournament a game with this factor should not be occurring whilst it is not on the rest of the tables.

Fine Post overall, & you may well be right, but who has the greater rights in this - the viewers, or the players?

If 90% of the viewers wanted to see hole cards, & 0% of the players wanted hole cards shown (& were getting zero recompense), what would your decision be, if you were the organiser?

If it was as black and white to say that all or most players were to object to the live stream then yes you do have to give the reg-paying player first priority. The tournament is a supply for the player first and foremost. It's not like most televised sports where the coverage supplies a huge portion of the revenue; so these live streams should never have the power to dictate what happens in these games. But provided it can be carried out ensuring the integrity of the game and there is a demand from the viewer for these streams, I don't think players should object from them taking place.
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jgcblack
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2012, 02:35:38 PM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.

Mantis - with this revelation alone.. realising this is the case i mean.  This single point makes you so much more advanced than your average recreational player.

You have to remember the average recreational player neither knows he is, nor accepts he is.   He may sometimes do something which happens to be a correct response/ reaction to this revelation, but this is almost always an accident.

The streams are good for the casual player because it placates their want for entertainment.. i see the stream as a possible source of income one way or another for me but they see it as fun.

This is the vital difference we need to realize in order to address.

 Roll Eyes

Eye roll of the week contender


Key word is the average recreational player...

You clearly don't count as the average recreational player.

And Mantis, you are welcome sir, loving your slightly controversial posts all over the site!
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »



If 90% of the viewers wanted to see hole cards, & 0% of the players wanted hole cards shown (& were getting zero recompense), what would your decision be, if you were the organiser?

This is basically what it boils down to.

As far as I'm concerned the players are the ones who make the tournament possible, and pay the entry fee, etc. For me their rights and opinions should come first. At the very least they should get some reimbursement. If hole cards being shown are such a good marketing tool then give the players some cash, or make the tournament reg fee free, or something. As it is the players are paying the organisers to use them for marketing/making money.

I accept that in tournaments such as WSOP, EPT, etc that the whole TV thing is a big part of the appeal and perhaps a reason why these tournaments are popular. The same can not be said for most of the UK tours. If a tournament here is gonna have a guarantee then that guarantee is going to be the same regardless of whether it is being streamed or not.
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tikay
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 03:09:37 PM »

I gather from some acerbic off-Forum incoming that some think I have a problem with Live Streams - well I don't!

I do think, however, that the player's opinion is paramount, far more so than someone sitting at home who has paid & contributed nothing.

They are designed as a Marketing tool of course. Whether that actually works, I have no idea. How many Live Stream viewers subsequently go play on the sponsors site as a result of the stream, or at their Live Event?

What if......the Stream were occassionally interrupted by an advert for the sponsors product, an upcoming Tourney or whatever?

The nut result would be to monetise the product better, imo. Then the players get a bit for their trouble, the sponsor covers or gets a contribution to his costs, & the viewers pay, just as they do to watch BBC, or Sky TV. 

If the Live Stream were pay-to-view - say a fiver - how many would cough up?
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tikay
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 03:15:48 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

A+ Mr Aitch.

So much so I've changed my sig.

Made my day that.

Not sure what MANTICS might think though.

We are both sort of looking at each other wondering who is most insulted, or complimented.
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The Camel
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2012, 03:30:35 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

A+ Mr Aitch.

So much so I've changed my sig.

Made my day that.

Not sure what MANTICS might think though.

We are both sort of looking at each other wondering who is most insulted, or complimented.


You reckon my posts are throw together without a little thought?

Tut tut.
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tikay
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2012, 03:37:50 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

A+ Mr Aitch.

So much so I've changed my sig.

Made my day that.

Not sure what MANTICS might think though.

We are both sort of looking at each other wondering who is most insulted, or complimented.


You reckon my posts are throw together without a little thought?

Tut tut.

Absolutely NOT, quite the opposite. The beauty of your Posts is that we have to think about them, read between the lines, & sometimes we never know if we have had a haircut or a shave.
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2012, 03:51:34 PM »

hypothetically...if someone was disqualified from a final table for not showing their cards do they still receive the payout for that particular place...and if not what happens to it?
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The Camel
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2012, 04:00:36 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

A+ Mr Aitch.

So much so I've changed my sig.

Made my day that.

Not sure what MANTICS might think though.

We are both sort of looking at each other wondering who is most insulted, or complimented.


You reckon my posts are throw together without a little thought?

Tut tut.

Absolutely NOT, quite the opposite. The beauty of your Posts is that we have to think about them, read between the lines, & sometimes we never know if we have had a haircut or a shave.

 Wink
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"I dont think you're a wanker Keith" David Nicholson 4th March 2013
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2012, 07:35:43 PM »

Have found this a very interesting thread and do think the Camel puts his point across very well. My feeling is we have to look at the wider issues here. Firstly there are very few sports/games ( dont want to create a separate argument as to which poker is ) were the players pay their own prizemoney and are then charged a fee on top for the privilege. A fee which  some event organisers at the moment seem to think has no limit.
     If live streaming with hole cards leads to more marketing value to organisers and internet poker company's should we perhaps look at not weather we want it but Rather can it benefit us? and if so how. My feeling at the moment is that live poker lacks player power and until we acknowledge this we will continue to pay increasing costs and subjected to live streams or whatever.
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The Camel
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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2012, 08:13:51 PM »

Have found this a very interesting thread and do think the Camel puts his point across very well. My feeling is we have to look at the wider issues here. Firstly there are very few sports/games ( dont want to create a separate argument as to which poker is ) were the players pay their own prizemoney and are then charged a fee on top for the privilege. A fee which  some event organisers at the moment seem to think has no limit.
     If live streaming with hole cards leads to more marketing value to organisers and internet poker company's should we perhaps look at not weather we want it but Rather can it benefit us? and if so how. My feeling at the moment is that live poker lacks player power and until we acknowledge this we will continue to pay increasing costs and subjected to live streams or whatever.

We missed the boat years ago Mike.

We should have done this when tv poker first came on the scene.

If players had refused to play unless money was added to tv tournaments, it would have been.

The Party Poker World Open. Headline sponsor adds nothing to the prizepool. Can you imagine Federer or Woods playing a similar event in their respective sports?

Instead a few players grabbed the opportunity to get their boats on tv and got a reputation far beyond their ability (prime example: Devilfish) and made fortunes in sponsorship money.

Meanwhile the majority of poker players got zilch from the tv boom.
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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »

Meanwhile Barry fucking Hearn made fortunes from poker players just desperate to get their faces on tv.

Idiots.
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2012, 08:25:43 PM »

My phone rang once and when I answered the following conversation occurred:

"Hello, this is xxx from Full Tilt Poker"

"Hi"

"I'd like to invite you to participate in the Full Tilt Speed Poker Championship in London next week"

"Thanks. How much is the entry?"

"Five thousand pounds"

"How many in the field?"

"36"

"Nice. How much are you adding to the prizepool?"

"Errr. Nothing"

"Oh. How much will give me towards my expenses?"

"Ummm. Zero I'm afraid"

"Oh. So what incentive is there for me to play?"

"You might get the chance to play on tv against Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonious or Erik Seidel who are all confirmed entrants!"

I hung up.



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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2012, 08:55:28 PM »

Meanwhile Barry fucking Hearn made fortunes from poker players just desperate to get their faces on tv.

Idiots.
him and Eddie also got turned over on a few occasions too Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2012, 10:45:49 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.

Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

I agree that blonde has a massively wide range of players that participate on the site, but I think its fair to say that the average blonde will have put more time into their game, be more aware of whats going on in the poker scene, have more friends/acquaintances in the poker, have far more experience of the game and the environments it's played in. 

Of course there are many posters/lurkers here who are casual, but I think the vast majority probably dedicate a massive amount of their time in life to poker. 
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